Serienscheine...etc... German speaker please

[Drusus]

Okay, as a collector of these, I find the need to be able to pronounce these words correctly. I recently was corrected that:

 

Notgeld (I pronounced it NOT • GELD) is pronounced Note • Gelt

 

So I figured I should make sure I am pronouncing other words correctly like:

 

I pronounce Serienscheine: Serien (like serial with an N) • Schine (shine with more of the SCH sound)

 

I have a feeling I am pronouncing it wrong

 

I pronounce Kriegsgeld as Kreegs • Gelt

 

When I first started collecting I was corrected that

 

Numismatist ( I pronounced Numis • matist or numis • matic ) is pronounced Nu • MISS • ma • tist or nu • MISS • ma • tic

 

any help with the correct way to pronounce Serienscheine would be great

[jlueke]

Okay, as a collector of these, I find the need to be able to pronounce these words correctly. I recently was corrected that:

 

Notgeld (I pronounced it NOT • GELD) is pronounced Note • Gelt

 

So I figured I should make sure I am pronouncing other words correctly like:

 

I pronounce Serienscheine: Serien (like serial with an N) • Schine (shine with more of the SCH sound)

 

I have a feeling I am pronouncing it wrong

 

I pronounce Kriegsgeld as Kreegs • Gelt

 

When I first started collecting I was corrected that

 

Numismatist ( I pronounced Numis • matist or numis • matic ) is pronounced Nu • MISS • ma • tist or nu • MISS • ma • tic

 

any help with the correct way to pronounce Serienscheine would be great

 

 

Zerian Schein(eh) (the latter word is like you describe but you hvaveto pronounce the e at the end, similarly to eh)

[Drusus]

As I thought, I had it wrong...I am learning a lot about Germany and the language from these.

 

I still need help sometimes when the bill has some funky, older phrase, local dialect spelling, etc...I recognize far more words than I can pronounce.

 

thanks for the help

[Nightwing]

As I thought, I had it wrong...I am learning a lot about Germany and the language from these.

 

I still need help sometimes when the bill has some funky, older phrase, local dialect spelling, etc...I recognize far more words than I can pronounce.

 

thanks for the help

 

So now you have to share...what do those words mean??? (Obviously I know what numismatist and numismatic are, at least I hope I do! )

[Drusus]

So now you have to share...what do those words mean??? (Obviously I know what numismatist and numismatic are, at least I hope I do! )

 

someone will correct me if I am wrong but:

 

Serienscheine: series notes (like a series of bills issued by a town, often with a similar theme, a story being told, images....often small change amounts like 50 pfennig or so. I think the word is used mostly for local issue (town, city, etc...) bills like notgeld.

 

Kriegsgeld: War money...like notgeld...issued as emergency money...in my experience you find these are more likely to have been circulated.

 

Notgeld: Emergency money...kinda encompasses the other 2 as they are all serving, in many cases, as small change to fill in where the government was lacking. There are iron, aluminum, Porcelain, zinc, coins many different bills. Serienscheine would be notgeld bills that are in a series. These were often minted and printed up to around 1920, well after they were needed or would be used, just because people liked them. There are hyper inflation notgeld as well.

 

Mainly they are bills and coins that were minted and printed by someone other than a central authority...more by cities and towns or even companies.

 

here are a few examples:

 

Serienscheine

 

 

 

 

 

Kriegsgeld

 

Notgeld:

 

 

you also have Wertmarken which were tokens:

 

 

But here is one I havent even looked into:

 

 

KLEINGELDERSATZMARKE

[Nightwing]

OOooooo, interesting. I can't find the link now, but earlier in the year I read about this town somewhere in New England (North Eastern part of the US) that had issued it's own currency. Of course they couldn't call it currency exactly because it would be against federal law, but they do so and many of the residents, including businesses and banks are quite happy using it.

 

Do you know if towns in Germany still issue/print any thing like this any longer since the switch to the Euro? (It sounds like this a thing of the past).

[tabbs]

Jorg pretty much summed it up, and he will know better how to "describe" German sounds using English characters. But some sounds are quite tricky ...

 

Notgeld (I pronounced it NOT • GELD) is pronounced Note • Gelt

Yes, "Note-Gelt" (stress on the first syllable) comes pretty close. Except that in English this type of O is usually pronounced as a diphtong while in German we say a "plain" O here.

 

I pronounce Serienscheine: Serien (like serial with an N) • Schine (shine with more of the SCH sound)

"Zay-ree-en-shy-ne" (stress on 1st syll., the E at the end is a schwa)

 

I pronounce Kriegsgeld as Kreegs • Gelt

Sounds, errm, looks good.

 

Numismatist ( I pronounced Numis • matist or numis • matic ) is pronounced Nu • MISS • ma • tist or nu • MISS • ma • tic

Instead of "numismatist" we say "Numismatiker" in German - "noo-miss-mah-ticker". And, "numismatics" is "Numismatik". In both cases the stress is on the third syllable (ma).

 

Christian

[tabbs]

Do you know if towns in Germany still issue/print any thing like this any longer since the switch to the Euro? (It sounds like this a thing of the past).

Yes, it is a thing of the past - there is no hyperinflation, and no cash shortage either, so in that regard there just is no need for Notgeld.

 

But since you mentioned the "regional money" in the US (guess you had issues such as the Berkshares in mind), that is something you can find in Europe too. Austria, Germany and the UK come to mind ... however, the purpose of such issues is a different one. They are not issued by city administrations and such but by local business communities. The idea behind such "complementary currencies" is that money should be spent regionally - you buy from local stores, not from huge chains. Also, many of these initiatives follow the ideas of Silvio Gesell - the "notes" issued by such communities lose a certain percentage of their value if not spent within a certain period of time. Seems that such regional currencies work fine in some areas while they have failed elsewhere. With regard to Germany, the "Chiemgauer" in Rosenheim/Traunstein, BY, for example is flourishing - the "Rheingold" here in Düsseldorf, NW, or the "Justus" in Gießen, HE, are dead or in limbo ...

 

Christian

[YeOldeCollector]

Speaking of local currency, the Isle of Lundy (Just off the coast of Britain) comes to mind.

 

Take a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coins_of_Lundy

 

- Clive.

[tabbs]

KLEINGELDERSATZMARKE

Smallchangereplacementtoken.

 

Or token in lieu of small change. Well, "Ersatz" apparently made it into English to some extent, but in German it is pronounced differently and does not necessarily have that negative connotation. As for how to pronounce it ... "kline-gelt--er-zuts--mah-ke", I'd say. The double hyphen indicates a pause between two syllables that is a tiny bit longer than the single hyphen. Again, the E at the end is a schwa. And the "er", well ... when I say "Ersatz", it almost sounds like "azuts" (second syllable stressed). People frrrom otherrr parrrts of Cherrrmany may pronounce the R quite audibly. But of cou'se they a'e not 'ight, hehe.

 

Chris-"North-Western pronounciation rules"-tian

[Nightwing]

tabbs, thank you for the lessen and yes, the Berkshares is exactly what I was thinking of.

[Drusus]

Thanks tabbs, youve been a big help!! I am not the type that MUST pronounce words from other languages exactly how a native speaker would pronounce it...but I like to be at least in the ball park.

[Dave]

.....

Do you know if towns in Germany still issue/print any thing like this any longer since the switch to the Euro? (It sounds like this a thing of the past).

 

 

You should take a look at this site for some information on new local currencies in Germany:

Link to Modern Serienschein Site There is even a claim to their having the first accepted Euro note here: Link to first Euro Claim

 

There is a whole bunch of local currencies worldwide, even in the US - a quick Google search will point you in the right direction for more information. A great collection of local currencies is found at San Miguel98's collection here: San Miguel's collection link

[Drusus]

I guess in those cases they are Serienschein but not notgeld as there is no real reason or need for them. Notgeld was emergency money, filling a real need. These seem to be people who just want to print their own bills. While often the Serienschein of the 20's continued to be be printed years after they were needed, they were still rooted and came about in a time of emergency when alternate currency was needed. I could be wrong but Germany (or America) isnt having trouble providing currency to the populous.

 

Its always best (IMO) to have a central authority in charge of the release of money. In a way, private issue money had a part in helping to destroy the German Economy. In an economy that is already suffering from inflation...the best thing is NOT to flood the economy with MORE money.

[Nightwing]

You should take a look at this site for some information on new local currencies in Germany:

Link to Modern Serienschein Site There is even a claim to their having the first accepted Euro note here: Link to first Euro Claim

 

There is a whole bunch of local currencies worldwide, even in the US - a quick Google search will point you in the right direction for more information. A great collection of local currencies is found at San Miguel98's collection here: San Miguel's collection link

 

Thanks for the links, that's very interesting!

[tabbs]

Now here is some modern "emergency" money.

 

(from steamtalks.de - not my image)

 

What are these used for? Well, most autobahn rest stops in Germany are combinations of a restaurant, a souvenir/snacks store etc. ... and bathrooms. So in order to offer the latter facilities free for their customers who are in "need" (Not), some places now have this voucher system. You insert 50 ct, get this thing above, do your business. Later you can use the voucher to buy something, so legally the restrooms are free. Not-Geld, in a way.

 

(duck)

 

Christian

[Scottishmoney]

Now here is some modern "emergency" money.

 

(from steamtalks.de - not my image)

 

What are these used for? Well, most autobahn rest stops in Germany are combinations of a restaurant, a souvenir/snacks store etc. ... and bathrooms. So in order to offer the latter facilities free for their customers who are in "need" (Not), some places now have this voucher system. You insert 50 ct, get this thing above, do your business. Later you can use the voucher to buy something, so legally the restrooms are free. Not-Geld, in a way.

 

(duck)

 

Christian

 

 

Are you afraid of something hitting the fan and flying ?

[jlueke]

I guess in those cases they are Serienschein but not notgeld as there is no real reason or need for them. Notgeld was emergency money, filling a real need. These seem to be people who just want to print their own bills. While often the Serienschein of the 20's continued to be be printed years after they were needed, they were still rooted and came about in a time of emergency when alternate currency was needed. I could be wrong but Germany (or America) isnt having trouble providing currency to the populous.

 

Its always best (IMO) to have a central authority in charge of the release of money. In a way, private issue money had a part in helping to destroy the German Economy. In an economy that is already suffering from inflation...the best thing is NOT to flood the economy with MORE money.

So for the Serienscheine of the 1920's can we refer to them as Notgeld as well? I know for Wattenscheid both are relatively common, moreso than the Kriegsgeld at the end of WW1 at least. But, the Serienscheine almost always look unused.

[Drusus]

So for the Serienscheine of the 1920's can we refer to them as Notgeld as well? I know for Wattenscheid both are relatively common, moreso than the Kriegsgeld at the end of WW1 at least. But, the Serienscheine almost always look unused.

 

I would probably call them notgeld although they were not used and were not technically emergency money. I would still call them Notgeld because in truth...from the start of WWI, the break of the mark from gold standard, and the beginning of Notgeld...to 1924...roughly a 10 year period...Germany was in a constant state of fiscal emergency in one form or another...

 

during the war these bills and coins were needed to fill real gaps...problem was...you can release all the money you want but if there is nothing for that money to buy, its still rather useless...this was the case during WWI when thousands of Germans were dying on the home front from starvation.

 

AFTER the war...Notgeld issued for use was still valid currency. By 1922, the government enacted a law to stop the production of Serienscheine Notgeld (whether used or not) but in the end, they were still produced (for use) during hyperinflation, only worsening the problem. So there was no significant amount of time that these weren't being produced and used between 1914-1924.

 

While its true that many Serienscheine were either not used or were never meant to be used, more issued as a collectors item or a means to raise money, they were still issued under the blanket of emergency issues in an economy that was indeed in a state of emergency.

 

I have official Reichbanknotes that were obviously never used all the way to the peak of hyperinflation, but they WERE meant to be used. This is probably also the case for notgeld issued and meant for use...they just never got into circulation or were only circulated for a small amount of time. Certainly during inflation, bills might have only been used once or not at all before a new set of even higher denomination bills were printed. As I collect these I find bills and coins that were obviously circulated and I find others, mostly the odd Serienscheine that were never used or never meant to be used.

 

 

Now above is a Reutergeld. These are issues of Serienscheine produced by a group of towns and cities in sets of 3. These were issued in honor of Fritz Reuter. These bills were never meant to be used, they were, in fact, issued AFTER the dates the bills claim to be valid to...just to insure they would not be used (other notgeld did this as well to stress they were not for circulation). These would technically NOT be true emergency money but are often lumped into notgeld simply because they were printed in a time that would still be considered emergency, and the fact that since there were hundreds of thousands of types by the switch over to Zwischenscheine, then Rentenmarks, that I figure its just easier to blanket them all under notgeld.

 

by 1922/23, most of these small change bills and coins were worthless anyway...as inflation started to skyrocket...there was no need for denominations of 50 pf or even 500 marks when bills were being printed with values of 500,000 into the Trillions. Then there was hyperinflationary notgeld that was printed up until the end in the tens of thousands (types of issues, not amount of bills!!)

 

So...in the end...I would say that technically bills like the Reutergeld are not as much notgeld but fantasy bills never meant for use and there were quite a few series notes like these, but they are lumped with notgeld because there was hardly a time within the 10 year span counting WWI, post WWI pre hyperinflation, and hyperinflation that notgeld meant for use WASN'T being printed or minted.

 

My Grandmother gave me this Westfalen issue and she gave me an Iron Duren issue from 1918. My Great Grandmother claims she used all different types of notgeld though she was very old and didnt get into details as to the ratio of official issue and notgeld she used...that during WWI there was a big underground economy and black market and that indeed the small change bills and coins were used. She gave me this Westfalen coin which looks like its been circulated although 1923 was during hyperinflation thus this 100 mark coin would have most likely been worthless...Unless it was circulated after the end Papiermark as a Reichsmark...or it got worn some other way as a pocket piece or something. It sat in a drawer from 1940 on.

 

 

sadly both my great grandmother and grandmother have passed away so I cannot grill them more now that I am far more interested...

[jlueke]

My Grandmother gave me this Westfalen issue and she gave me an Iron Duren issue from 1918. My Great Grandmother claims she used all different types of notgeld though she was very old and didnt get into details as to the ratio of official issue and notgeld she used...that during WWI there was a big underground economy and black market and that indeed the small change bills and coins were used. She gave me this Westfalen coin which looks like its been circulated although 1923 was during hyperinflation thus this 100 mark coin would have most likely been worthless...Unless it was circulated after the end Papiermark as a Reichsmark...or it got worn some other way as a pocket piece or something. It sat in a drawer from 1940 on.

Wasn't the Westfahlen money issued after the inflation ended as a kind of commerative issue?

[tabbs]

Wasn't the Westfahlen money issued after the inflation ended as a kind of commerative issue?

Some of them were made during the inflation, some were made later. According to Jaeger, they were all issued as collector pieces which served as fundraisers to help people in need. The late 1923 issues were planned for circulation, except that by the time they were issued, their value was close to zero, as Drusus wrote. So they were given away for free, to school schildren in the Ruhr area. And the "famous" big piece with a nominal value of "1 Billion" (in English 1 trillion), did indeed come out in 1924, after the inflation - and was then sold at 2.50 Reichsmark ...

 

Christian

[Drusus]

Some of them were made during the inflation, some were made later. According to Jaeger,

 

I NEED to get this...

[Dave]

So then does anyone know why one would be revalued? I have this one below and another one which is not revalued. I always found two things about this note odd. First the denomination of 1.60 is just kind of weird no matter where you are in the world, and second is to have a piece of seriencheine notgeld revalued. But then, that's exactly why I bought it.

 

[tabbs]

I NEED to get this...

Actually the Jaeger catalog is not about Notgeld. It lists German coins (1871-present) including "peripheral" territories such as Danzig and Saarland, colonies and occupied areas, but the Notgeld entries are limited to coins issued by German states and public banks. Other (primarily city) Notgeld issues can be found in specialized catalogs. As for the Jaeger, this is the ToC ...

http://www.gietl-verlag.de/blaetterkatalog...talog/index.php

... and here are some sample pages (Fed. Rep., late 1950s):

http://www.gietl-verlag.de/blaetterkatalog...talog/index.php

 

Christian

[tabbs]

So then does anyone know why one would be revalued?

This is not really an authoritative answer but a guess ... The Kraftverkehrsgesellschaft (KVG) Braunschweig was, and is, a public transport company in that city/region. So maybe 1.60 was, at some time, the price of a ticket? As for the new value (0.50), I have no idea. But the 1.60 note is even depicted here: http://www.kvg-braunschweig.de/historie2.htm

 

That is the KVG history page for the years 1919-1924. Scroll down a little to view three issues, and move the cursor across a note to see the other side.

 

Christian