IlyaE Posted December 22, 2007 Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 I know there are a lot of fakes of this coin, but this one looks authentic to me. What do you guys think (fake or genuine)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted December 22, 2007 Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 The portrait of Ivan III doesn't look quite right to me, but then again that is a particular monarch that I am not familiar with their coinage. It is one I would definitely give the Uzdennikov a hard look at first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted December 22, 2007 Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 The portrait of Ivan III doesn't look quite right to me, but then again that is a particular monarch that I am not familiar with their coinage. It is one I would definitely give the Uzdennikov a hard look at first. I believe it is probably false. The coin purports to be an extreme rarity, the rarest of all the Ioann III roubles, which is the SPB rouble struck with Anna's edge rather than the normal lettered edge seen on Ioann's roubles. When Anna died in 1740, the SPB mint had about 6,000 blanks on hand which had been edged for Anna, but not struck with her dies. Permission was sought and obtained to use these for Ioann's coinage. Very few of these Ioann roubles (with Anna's ornamented edge) have survived until the present day. There are only 2 different die pairings used for this coinage known to GM and illustrated in his corpus. I do not have access to my references just now but I will check when I do and see if this coin matches either of those die pairings. The chance that a genuine example of such an extreme rarity would be offered on ebay is, in my opinion, virtually nonexistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted December 22, 2007 Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 The chance that a genuine example of such an extreme rarity would be offered on ebay is, in my opinion, virtually nonexistent. That sums up my opinion of an awfully high percentage of the stuff on eBay lately. Now I am noticing counterfeit Scottish coinage coming out of China. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted December 22, 2007 Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 Well I'm no expert on authentication or Ioan's rubles, I only have his polushka:) I will say that if it is a fake, it is a good one! I compared your picture to the one in my newly acquired Bitkin, and the only difference I noticed is in the eagle's tail. The side feathers and the right feather in the tri-grouping, if I may call it so, don't look quite like the picture in the catalog. But the rest looks very convincing (to me). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted December 22, 2007 Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 The chance that a genuine example of such an extreme rarity would be offered on ebay is, in my opinion, virtually nonexistent. I agree with grivna1726 on this point as such a piece could easily be taken to a specialist dealer in Russian material. At auction it would certainly bring a high price. The only definite 1741 St. Petersburg Ivan III rouble counterfeit in my data base does not match these dies so is of no help. The ‘fly in the ointment,’ however, is the fact that each die was different, being made up with punches. The bust of the czar was probably from a single punch but subject to hand-finishing and therefore minor changes on the finished coin. Some day there will be a catalogue of individual dies for the coinage of Ivan III but for now it is necessary to see as many dies as possible for a definite opinion. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serg2222 Posted December 22, 2007 Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 As I think this is a modern fake strick at geniune Anna ruble. You may see part of the lerret betwen letters M and I over the bust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted December 22, 2007 Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 One other issue with this is that the SPB mintmark is curved below the bust, on the coin in Uzd, it is straight. The chin of the monarch also looks a bit off on this coin. But there are three different varieties of this coin listed in class IX that actually have the portrait of Ivan III. If indeed this were to be the real coin, it would be Uzd 0758 with that ornamental edge. The main problem I have is the book has rather poorly printed photographs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted December 22, 2007 Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 As I think this is a modern fake strick at geniune Anna ruble. You may see part of the lerret betwen letters M and I over the bust. I think you are right. Good observation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted December 22, 2007 Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 One other issue with this is that the SPB mintmark is curved below the bust, on the coin in Uzd, it is straight. The chin of the monarch also looks a bit off on this coin. But there are three different varieties of this coin listed in class IX that actually have the portrait of Ivan III. If indeed this were to be the real coin, it would be Uzd 0758 with that ornamental edge. The main problem I have is the book has rather poorly printed photographs. GM is a better source for illustrations. GM shows 16 different СПБ obverse dies for Ioann III. 2 of those 16 are with Anna's edge and the mintmark on both appears as С:П:Б: and slightly curved. This one from MiM auction 36 (lot 119), matches one of the 2 GM illustrated die varieties exactly and I am convinced it is real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlyaE Posted December 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2007 This a link on ebay for this coin - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200185486837 , seller has a nice story about it being a present from an old Russian lady from Paris, guarantees authenticity and provides some motorized papers. I will skip on it, but if you like to gamble go ahead. If anyone would find out if it's 100% fake or 100% genuine, please update this topic. Thank you. BTW, his reserve is 2k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted December 24, 2007 Report Share Posted December 24, 2007 It's puzzling - I don't have all the variety works but at first glance it does look quite convincing. If there are no such die varieties, it can be an unrecorded variety (unlikely - considering the small mintage) or a contemporary overstrike which is quite shocking in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted December 24, 2007 Report Share Posted December 24, 2007 It's puzzling - I don't have all the variety works but at first glance it does look quite convincing. I agree that the style of the obverse die is very close to that of original Ioann roubles. The reverse die definitely does not match those shown in GM for the Anna edge type. However, it is possible that there might be undocumented die combinations. The Anna edge rouble was listed as "Rare" by the Grand Duke in his corpus. With Elizabeth Petrovna's overstriking of Ioann's coins and the various wars and upheavals since that time, the number of surviving examples in private hands has probably shrunk even further. The Anna edge type Ioann rouble was missing from the massive Klingert collection when it was sold in 1910 by Adolph Hess. There was one in "VG" in the 1932 Hess Dubletten sale (not plated, unfortunately). I am aware of 4 other auction appearances of the Anna edge Ioann III rouble, some of which might (or might not) be duplicate appearances of the same coin. It is possible that there are others that are not known to me - I don't have an exhaustive collection of auction catalogues and there are some significant sales missing from my library. But, if there are others that I don't know about, I do think I'm on safe ground in saying that there are very few examples of the original mintage (about 6,000 coins) which survive in private hands today. I don't know what that number of surviving examples is, but I'm reasonably certain that it is very small. The reserve price of $2,000 is ridiculously low for such a coin. It is even low for an Ioann rouble of the normal lettered edge type in today's market. If there are no such die varieties, it can be an unrecorded variety (unlikely - considering the small mintage) or a contemporary overstrike which is quite shocking in my opinion. A contemporary overstrike is highly unlikely. Overstrikes were generally done for 2 reasons. The first reason was for revaluation of the coinage, as we see in the various copper overstriking programs in the 1700s. The second reason was for political purposes such as when there was a desire to remove the image of an earlier Tsar from public view for fear that it would undermine the stability of the throne under the new ruler. Examples are Elizabeth Petrovna's overstriking of Ioann's portrait coinage (and his secret imprisonment in solitary confinement following Elizabeth's coup) and Catherine II overstriking the coins of Peter III after his suspicious and convenient death. There is no reason for a portrait rouble of Ioann to be overstruck on an earlier coin. It is not impossible for such a coin to exist, perhaps as the result of mint error or the result of some mischievous action by bored mint employees, but it is not likely, in my opinion. I think serg2222 is probably correct in his suggestion that this is a modern forgery overstruck on a genuine Anna rouble. If it is a fake, it's a dangerous one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted December 24, 2007 Report Share Posted December 24, 2007 There might be one more reason but very small reason for overstriking purposes Grivna, that is for testing purposes which can be totally illegal. Taking the most famous (arguable) overstrike - the 1804 US dollar coin is overstrucked on a 1857? Swiss thaler as it was overstruck much later in 1858. Personally though, I don't think it's unreasonable to take some very old coinages that are not used for circulation to be tested which might have been "accidently" released to the public. Given that the unusual situation in St. Petersburg allowed rich people to specially restrike older coinages, I wonder what is the possiblity of using a new die untested with the possiblity of a hard financial situation in those days. I do agree that a counterfeit die overstruck on a genuine coin is a high possiblity - take a cheap F Anna ruble which perhaps is a mere 200-300USD, "overstrike" it and tada - easily 20 times of the original coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted December 24, 2007 Report Share Posted December 24, 2007 There might be one more reason but very small reason for overstriking purposes Grivna, that is for testing purposes which can be totally illegal. Taking the most famous (arguable) overstrike - the 1804 US dollar coin is overstrucked on a 1857? Swiss thaler as it was overstruck much later in 1858. Personally though, I don't think it's unreasonable to take some very old coinages that are not used for circulation to be tested which might have been "accidently" released to the public. Given that the unusual situation in St. Petersburg allowed rich people to specially restrike older coinages, I wonder what is the possiblity of using a new die untested with the possiblity of a hard financial situation in those days. This is possible but not probable. GM lists 3 novodels for Ioann: a rouble in copper and a silver grivennik, both in the Tolstoi collection, and the crude novodel 2 kopeks coin from new dies created using the illustration in Chaudoir. The possibility that such a coin could have escaped the attention of the great numismatists like the Grand Duke, Giel or Ilyin only to appear on ebay is just too hard to believe. I do agree that a counterfeit die overstruck on a genuine coin is a high possiblity - take a cheap F Anna ruble which perhaps is a mere 200-300USD, "overstrike" it and tada - easily 20 times of the original coin. The simplest explanation which explains the known facts is the explanation which is most likely to be true. In my opinion, the simplest explanation (and the one that is most likely to be true), is that the coin is false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted December 26, 2007 Report Share Posted December 26, 2007 Sold for $2,938.00 to coinmaninnj. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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