BeardToken Posted August 8, 2007 Report Share Posted August 8, 2007 Hi, I'm trying to find out the value of this 1725 Copper Beard Tax Token. I need to get an idea of how much it is worth. Any suggestions are much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted August 8, 2007 Report Share Posted August 8, 2007 Sorry but it looks unoriginal to me. Welcome to coinpeople by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted August 8, 2007 Report Share Posted August 8, 2007 I'm trying to find out the value of this 1725 Copper Beard Tax Token. I need to get an idea of how much it is worth. Any suggestions are much appreciated. I only looked at Brekke, but the ornamental border of this piece doesn't match any of the pictures from that reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted August 8, 2007 Report Share Posted August 8, 2007 It doesn't appear to be an original to me either, there are so many fakes of just about everything numismatic from Russia these days. 18th Century material is the most heavily counterfeited, primarily because of the greater interest in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeardToken Posted August 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2007 It doesn't appear to be an original to me either, there are so many fakes of just about everything numismatic from Russia these days. 18th Century material is the most heavily counterfeited, primarily because of the greater interest in it. As far as I know this is not a fake. First, it's been in my collection for decades and second, because of the source it came from. What makes you think that this is counterfeit? Back to my original queston - who can I contact to appraise this piece? Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted August 8, 2007 Report Share Posted August 8, 2007 This is my opinion but what bothers me is the unusual parallel lines in foreground which highly suggest that it's a cast fake or some sort. This should never if not rarely happen if this was a struck medal. The thing is, counterfeits originate from day one since it's release. Or pardon me, at some rare times, even before their release days! http://en.rian.ru/business/20050908/41339685.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted August 8, 2007 Report Share Posted August 8, 2007 Fakes were common even during the USSR era, find the right people on the street and they would sell you anything. The only thing for sale on the street that was probably real were women(I said probably). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roaddevil Posted August 8, 2007 Report Share Posted August 8, 2007 hmm not an expert but dont u think its 2 clean an new looking for an 18th Century token? just think bout it c other 18th Century tokens an coins they look really diff with wear or dirty ,etc it must have a flaw this doesnt for something from 1725 weird for me. don worry we all got a counterfeits once or twice ....or thrice or more its part of coin collecting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeardToken Posted August 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2007 Fakes were common even during the USSR era, find the right people on the street and they would sell you anything. The only thing for sale on the street that was probably real were women(I said probably). I will try to find someone to show my token to in person to determine if it can possibly be authentic. In the meantime, I found this; http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?S...5329&src=pr How do you think this one compares to mine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted August 8, 2007 Report Share Posted August 8, 2007 Not close at all. Again, your field has parallel lines which shows that it's not struck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted August 8, 2007 Report Share Posted August 8, 2007 How do you think this one compares to mine?The ornamental edge is totally different; also, the letters are much more well-formed in the Heritage piece than in the pictures you have shown. I also agree with gxseries and scottishmoney concerning the suspicious lines in the fields. But I am certainly no expert; just IMHO, I don't think it is authentic . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted August 8, 2007 Report Share Posted August 8, 2007 I will try to find someone to show my token to in person to determine if it can possibly be authentic. In the meantime, I found this;http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?S...5329&src=pr How do you think this one compares to mine? The Heritage token is a novodel, which accounts for the more refined, regular style of the inscription compared to other items actually struck during Peter's lifetime. I have never seen a square beard tax token in real life, only pictures in books. They are quite rare, whether as originals or as novodels. Even the Hess 1932 sale (which featured an extensive selection of super-rarities) had only a single novodel of this type and no original. I do not like the look of your piece, it reminds me of some fakes of the 1 kopek copper plate money which I own (also purchased decades ago, but as fakes). The style of your token just looks "wrong" to me and I also doubt its authenticity. These tokens have a lettered edge on the originals and on most novodels. Your piece appears to have a smooth edge. There is a novodel known to exist with a smooth edge, but I don't believe that this is what you have because the style of your piece, in my opinion, is too crude for a novodel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shtirlic Posted August 8, 2007 Report Share Posted August 8, 2007 It's clear fake most probably produced in 70s (similar "work" as plates, 1762 copper etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted August 8, 2007 Report Share Posted August 8, 2007 As I noted above, it was possible to buy fakes even in the Soviet Union, they really were one of those gray areas where the authorities really turned a blind eye, ie coin collecting was not quite legal(coin hoarding) but these things were known fakes, and how do you prosecute for that when there are more pressing matters? If it existed then, it is much much worse now, now fakes are being made not to please collectors and make a ruble or two, but rather to deceive collectors and make a few hundred or thousand rubles. I bought a fake Konstantin Ruble from 1825 from a street vendor in Odesa a few years ago for the equivalent of $8. At least it appears to have some silver, and it is a pretty good fake, but still I bought it as a fake and not the real thing. But I saw fakes of even early Soviet era coins, ie the 1920's Rubles, Poltinas etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostDutchman Posted August 8, 2007 Report Share Posted August 8, 2007 the pitted areas on the reverse are also signs it was cast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigCanadianM Posted August 9, 2007 Report Share Posted August 9, 2007 Beard Tax? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted August 9, 2007 Report Share Posted August 9, 2007 Beard Tax? Peter the Great of Russia was very pro-Western and saw the Russian habit of wearing beards as "Eastern". He was known to personally hack off beards of advisors, boyars etc. in his presence. The beard tax was implemented as a measure to stop men from wearing beards because of the prohibitive tax that was more than most could afford. The tokens were given to the payer of the tax as a receipt, proof that he had paid the tax and could wear a beard. So effectively the only men left wearing beards during that period were nobles, or Russian Orthodox clergy etc. that could afford the tax. Peter I instituted many other such novel tax schemes to finance the long Northern War against Sweden that went on from 1700-1721. For that reason he was not very contemporaneously popular in Russia. His popularity only was after his reign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigCanadianM Posted August 9, 2007 Report Share Posted August 9, 2007 Wow! Thanks for the info, Scott! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xaxol Posted August 10, 2007 Report Share Posted August 10, 2007 the token is crappy fake/ FUFLO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted August 10, 2007 Report Share Posted August 10, 2007 Peter the Great of Russia was very pro-Western and saw the Russian habit of wearing beards as "Eastern". He was known to personally hack off beards of advisors, boyars etc. in his presence. The beard tax was implemented as a measure to stop men from wearing beards because of the prohibitive tax that was more than most could afford. The tokens were given to the payer of the tax as a receipt, proof that he had paid the tax and could wear a beard. So effectively the only men left wearing beards during that period were nobles, or Russian Orthodox clergy etc. that could afford the tax. Peter I instituted many other such novel tax schemes to finance the long Northern War against Sweden that went on from 1700-1721. For that reason he was not very contemporaneously popular in Russia. His popularity only was after his reign. Great story! For more like that, i recommend the book "Peter The Great" by Robert Massie, a very well done biography of Peter I. Not overly scholarly, but a good read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted August 10, 2007 Report Share Posted August 10, 2007 Great story! For more like that, i recommend the book "Peter The Great" by Robert Massie, a very well done biography of Peter I. Not overly scholarly, but a good read. Yes indeed, I have read it 8-9 times now. It resides in the perpetually read part of my library. There are good side histories in that particular book on the Ottoman Empire, and Sweden also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dprice Posted August 10, 2007 Report Share Posted August 10, 2007 I agree with everyone. I do think its a fake. Not because everyone else thinks so. The W and A look too far apart. I have a coin that was passed down from my mother. She had it for 20 years and is a fake. I hope its real and you prove us all wrong. It just dosent look real to me. You might think we are all just trying to bring you down, but its just our opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted August 10, 2007 Report Share Posted August 10, 2007 We have all at one time or another been stung by a fake. Mine is the 20 Marks from Hamburg dated 1910 that I bought in Hamburg for 125 Mks several years ago to find out there really is no such thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maya Posted August 10, 2007 Report Share Posted August 10, 2007 I will try to find someone to show my token to in person to determine if it can possibly be authentic. That is definitely the way to do it. I don't know where you are located so I cannot recommend anyone in particular, but I would try to find a really reputable auction house that deals in coins or a well known dealer with a good reputation. It is always better to look at the actual coin/token rather than a picture. I, myself, have gone to Stak's in New York to authenticate some of my questionable coins, but even with their assurance, for me, there is always an element of doubt. It would be good if you could speak to more than one person. It's always best to get a second opinion. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted August 10, 2007 Report Share Posted August 10, 2007 It is always better to look at the actual coin/token rather than a picture. I, myself, have gone to Stack's in New York to authenticate some of my questionable coins, but even with their assurance, for me, there is always an element of doubt. Good luck. Stacks has to be one of my favourite dealer visits ever. You walk in and they want you to feel at home, get you coffee, tea etc. And the coins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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