A great rarity

[grivna1726]

 

This coin sold for a seemingly crazy amount of money (even in today's market) in a recent auction.

 

However, Uzdenikov says the coin is unique.

 

And GM comments that the only known example is (was?) the property of the Vienna Museum and this coin looks like a very close match to the example he shows, so it is possibly the same coin.

 

While the hammer price of 220,000 Euros is very strong, it does not seem especially "crazy" when compared to coins of similar rarity from other major European countries (and looks downright cheap when compared to similar US coins).

[Maya]

This is truly a remarkable coin.

 

But could someone please explain something to me? Having never attended an auction, I am not at all familiar with how they are conducted. What is the purpose of the estimate?

 

The estimate for this coin was 3,000 Euros. Is it at all conceivable that this coin could have sold for that price? And if not, why was the estimate so low? Could there be a question about it's authenticity or provenance?

[kisenish]

why was the estimate so low?

 

To attract potential bidders, so simple it is Otherwise not so many would come and bid. But if the estimate is unreasonably low, people will concur with each other, paying even more that they would like to. It's a game

[sigistenz]

But could someone please explain something to me? Having never attended an auction, I am not at all familiar with how they are conducted. What is the purpose of the estimate?

 

The estimate for this coin was 3,000 Euros. Is it at all conceivable that this coin could have sold for that price? And if not, why was the estimate so low? Could there be a question about it's authenticity or provenance?

Maya, a low estimate makes more people travel to the auction. The auctioneer having published his catalog long before can be sure to attract many floor bidders (bargain hunters). Some of them then will bid more than they had expected.

With today's Russian coin market a sky rocketing price could be foreseen, regardless of the low estimate.

P.S: While I was writing this, kisenish replied already. Greetings to you, Alexey!

[grivna1726]

To attract potential bidders, so simple it is Otherwise not so many would come and bid. But if the estimate is unreasonably low, people will concur with each other, paying even more that they would like to. It's a game

 

Yes, it is a game. When the coins sell for true market value, the auction house then brags about what runaway successes their auctions are when everything sells for many times the estimated price. With the exception of some Spanish dealers, this seems to be a common practice in Europe.

 

The opposite approach, sometimes seen outside Europe, is to put unrealistically high estimates on the lots and hope that someone is foolish enough to believe them and bid accordingly.

 

Ideally, the estimate should provide a realistic assessment of current market value. Individual results might not mean much, so take a look at overall prices realized for the auction. If prices routinely are below estimate or routinely exceed them by large proportions, then you have a fairly good idea about what sort of game is being played.

 

If prices are reasonably close to pre-sale estimates, then you are probably seeing a dealer who uses estimates in a way which is actually useful to the collector. Again, look for the overall pattern in the price results, not at individual prices realized.

[BigCanadianM]

EEK!

I'm sorry but that bust is the stuff of nightmares! Why is it so out of proportion?

[grivna1726]

This is truly a remarkable coin.

 

But could someone please explain something to me? Having never attended an auction, I am not at all familiar with how they are conducted. What is the purpose of the estimate?

 

The estimate for this coin was 3,000 Euros. Is it at all conceivable that this coin could have sold for that price? And if not, why was the estimate so low? Could there be a question about it's authenticity or provenance?

 

 

 

I wonder if the auction house knew just how exceedingly rare this coin really is.

 

The lot description makes no comment beyond a description of the design elements, catalog references (although "R4" is noted) and the condition of the coin:

 

Lot No. 1222

 

EUROPÄISCHE MÜNZEN UND MEDAILLEN (EUROPEAN COINS AND MEDALS)

RUSSLAND (RUSSIA)

KAISERREICH

 

Elisabeth, 1741-1761.

 

Dukat 1746, Moskau. 3,45 g. Gekröntes Brustbild r.//Gekrönter Doppeladler mit Zepter und Reichsapfel in den Fängen, auf der Brust Wappenschild. Bitkin 4 (R4); Fb. 113. GOLD. RR Leicht gewellt, sehr schön-vorzüglich

 

Estimated Price: 3.000,00 EUR

Hammer Price: 220.000,00 EUR

 

Normally, I would expect to see some comment like "von großter seltenheit" or other such remark concerning the extreme rarity of the coin. Maybe the auction house (correctly) did not think that it was necessary to make such a comment because it would bring a very strong price anyway.

 

Still, it seems odd that a coin that exists in only one or two known examples would not receive a more detailed lot description.

[gxseries]

Isn't that much rarer that the famous Konstantine ruble? And that went over half a million USD...

[squirrel]

i think the constantine coin represented a dramatic chapter in russian history, a the story that goes with the creation of the ruble being minted for constantine, who would be, but then wasnt, crowned, brings intrigue and romance to the Constantine Rouble.

 

I dont think Elizabeth's ducat has quite the legend to go along with the rarity.

Its just extremely rare because its the only one around today. Does anyone know where it was, between the vienna museum and this auction? Perhaps it walked out of the museum during the war, and mysteriously turned up in some soldiers hand me down box of souvenirs. ???

[grivna1726]

i think the constantine coin represented a dramatic chapter in russian history, a the story that goes with the creation of the ruble being minted for constantine, who would be, but then wasnt, crowned, brings intrigue and romance to the Constantine Rouble.

 

I dont think Elizabeth's ducat has quite the legend to go along with the rarity.

Its just extremely rare because its the only one around today. Does anyone know where it was, between the vienna museum and this auction? Perhaps it walked out of the museum during the war, and mysteriously turned up in some soldiers hand me down box of souvenirs. ???

 

I think there is merit in what you say.

 

For a type collector, the Constantine pattern rouble and its few novodels is the only type.

 

For Elizabeth, there are ducats of other dates and also coins in regular gold, silver and copper denominations which can be found (so Elizabeth is much, much easier to represent in a collection than Constantine). A similar situation is Catherine's 1796 Imperial - an extremely rare date, but not necessarily a great rarity as a type.

 

Still, I'm surprised by the restrained and understated nature of the lot description.

 

It is possible that this might be a second, previously unrecorded example of the 1746 ducat.

[kisenish]

I attended to this auction in person. What auctioneer said, was - "This is a great rarity, only one piece MORE apparently exists. This coin is in the museum of Vienna. We established a contact to the director of this museum and compared OUR coin to the coin in Vienna. THEY were completely matching in details, suggesting that OUR coin has been struck with the same dies".

 

Summarizing, the coin is still in Vienna, this is the second exemplar.

[squirrel]

Thanks for the information, Alexy.

 

By the way, did you have any success at the auction?

[kisenish]

By the way, did you have any success at the auction?

 

Hi Josh Unfortunately, I could not buy any coins there (due to very high prices), on the contrary, I wanted to sell my collection there and asked about conditions

[grivna1726]

I attended to this auction in person. What auctioneer said, was - "This is a great rarity, only one piece MORE apparently exists. This coin is in the museum of Vienna. We established a contact to the director of this museum and compared OUR coin to the coin in Vienna. THEY were completely matching in details, suggesting that OUR coin has been struck with the same dies".

 

Summarizing, the coin is still in Vienna, this is the second exemplar.

 

 

Thank you for this information.

[Maya]

Thank you all very much for the information on auction "games"

[tabbs]

There is an article about that coin in the current issue of MünzenRevue. According to that text, there are three of these coins: one in a museum in Moscow, the one in Vienna, and this piece.

 

As for the description, well, the text above does say "RR". But even that might be considered understatement. Where had it been before? MR just refers to the "previous owner", so probably some private seller. Even more interesting is that, according to Künker, the €3,000 estimate was much more (!) than what that owner had paid for the coin in the 1980s ...

 

Christian

[grivna1726]

There is an article about that coin in the current issue of MünzenRevue. According to that text, there are three of these coins: one in a museum in Moscow, the one in Vienna, and this piece.

 

This is the first I have heard about a Moscow Museum example. Is this confirmed?

 

As for the description, well, the text above does say "RR". But even that might be considered understatement. Where had it been before? MR just refers to the "previous owner", so probably some private seller. Even more interesting is that, according to Künker, the €3,000 estimate was much more (!) than what that owner had paid for the coin in the 1980s ...

 

Christian

 

 

Prices in the 1980s were much, much lower than today. At the height of the runaway coin market in 1980, I remember seeing a decent Elizabeth 10 roubles being offered at just slightly over $5,000 which was a lot then. Prices dropped afterward.