Timofei Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Here is the coin from my collection. This is a rare gold award coin called zolotoy of the weight of 1\4 of chervonetz. These coins were the first Russian coins bearing the date in arabic figures (1654). They were minted in 1654 as the payment or award to the army of Kozaks of Bogdan Hmelnitsky. Many of them were holed and used as distinction mark on a hat or a coat. I checked with numismatic section in the Russian Historical museum about authenticity of the coin (it is 100% authentic) - this is so called middle-wear die. First coins of the series were minted with fresh crisp letters (figure '5' was looking more or less like modern '5') and the last coins had barely distinguishible devices (figure '5' was more like modern '1'). Interesting piece of history. This is Russian language article about such pieces by Spassky (for those who want to dig further, sorry for Russian I do not know if it was ever translated). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Very nice piece ! I saw those pieces in local museums on Ukraine in 1970s. All of them were holed. I believe there was also double-"zolotoi" minted if I'm not mistaken . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timofei Posted December 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Very nice piece ! I saw those pieces in local museums on Ukraine in 1970s. All of them were holed. I believe there was also double-"zolotoi" minted if I'm not mistaken . Well, even historical witnesses in 1730-s saw 20 dukat (!) piece prepared for Bogdan Hmelnicky. Some pieced were prepared for heads of divisions with heavier weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Well, even historical witnesses in 1730-s saw 20 dukat (!) piece prepared for Bogdan Hmelnicky. Some pieced were prepared for heads of divisions with heavier weight. Where are they now ?! Interesting....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timofei Posted December 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Where are they now ?! Interesting....... GIM has about 30 of the different pieces like I posted, 20 dukat is in Hermitage, higher weights are displayed in GIM and in the storage, but I do not know these pieces. Mr. Shiriakov from GIM when writing his doctorate works made digital pictures of all gold 16 and 17 dukats in Hermitage and GIM (quite a database!), so this work is still awaits publication and maybe someday will be published, I hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 GIM has about 30 of the different pieces like I posted, 20 dukat is in Hermitage, higher weights are displayed in GIM and in the storage, but I do not know these pieces. Mr. Shiriakov from GIM when writing his doctorate works made digital pictures of all gold 16 and 17 dukats in Hermitage and GIM (quite a database!), so this work is still awaits publication and maybe someday will be published, I hope. Would be extremely interesting to take a look at this research. I've just thought about a catalog (something like Mr Diakov's multi-volume series). Why all major Russian numismatic catalogs, books and references (with some exceptions, of course) do not cover pre-1699 period in great details ? I realize it would be a monster work to accomplish but with , say , decade-by-decade approach it could be done. Should we ask Mr Diakov to do that ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timofei Posted December 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Would be extremely interesting to take a look at this research. I've just thought about a catalog (something like Mr Diakov's multi-volume series). Why all major Russian numismatic catalogs, books and references (with some exceptions, of course) do not cover pre-1699 period in great details ? I realize it would be a monster work to accomplish but with , say , decade-by-decade approach it could be done. Should we ask Mr Diakov to do that ? This is actually not my interest (so I cannot give complete details), but there are plenty of catalogs by Grishin-Kleshinov and Gaidukov. Just couple of days ago a new final volume of the series was released - covering wire coinage from days of Alexei Mihailovich to Peter 1 (including Copper Rebelion). So indeed the wire coinage is covered by literature, it is only that the interest of collectors is clearly divided between Pre-petrine and Imperial coinage. I think that any imperial collector will not refuse gold award coins, efimok 1655, Sevsky Chech (like mine on the picture below) and maybe couple of other denominations. Wire coins are just so different so are those collectors. As to Michail Diakov - he is releasing final volumes of his medal series (he showed me the make-up already so not long time to wait). I do not think he ever enters into this area because a lot of serious work is done by other authors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Sevsky Chech (like mine on the picture below) Beautiful ! Thanks for the joy of observing ! As to Michail Diakov - he is releasing final volumes of his medal series (he showed me the make-up already so not long time to wait). I do not think he ever enters into this area because a lot of serious work is done by other authors. I'll ask him in NYC next month Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 ...the interest of collectors is clearly divided between Pre-petrine and Imperial coinage. I think that any imperial collector will not refuse gold award coins, efimok 1655, Sevsky Chech (like mine on the picture below) and maybe couple of other denominations. Wire coins are just so different so are those collectors. I strongly agree. I'm an Imperial collector, but would be thrilled to have such outstanding pre-Petrine coins. The coins you show are wonderful and rarely seen. I have saved the images for my own future reference. I have some wire money, just to show the general type. However, the wire money, as a general rule, does not appeal to me, just as the many small silver coins with the crosses, circles, dots, obscure inscriptions and bad strikes of medieval Europe usually do not. It is the Renaissance and later coins of Europe which I find most interesting, attractive and appealing - same for the Russian series, which means interest is directed to the modern milled coinage of Peter I and later. That said, I have tremendous respect for collectors of Russian wire money. It is a very complex series and any attempt to collect it will require serious study. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Very fascinating, thank you for posting this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Wow impressive! I wouldn't expect Diakov to cover all 1000 years of Russian coinages - his works of the Imperial coinage worth 300 years of compilation is stunning enough. There are articles of this in English by Spassky, Timofei and the book title is called The Russian Monetary System, translated by Z.I. Gorishina and revised by L.S. Forrer, printed by Jacques Schulman N.V. Amsterdam -C, 1967. In fact, I have seen this book but it's a library book. I'll borrow it and scan pages of it when I got the time. It's a very good book which illustrates a long 1000 years of coinages into a few 200 odd pages of text and graphics. Well done really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 I wonder why these have western dates instead of Slavonic dates? Otherwise western dates not on coinage until reign of Petr I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timofei Posted December 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 There are articles of this in English by Spassky, Timofei and the book title is called The Russian Monetary System, translated by Z.I. Gorishina and revised by L.S. Forrer, printed by Jacques Schulman N.V. Amsterdam -C, 1967. Actually the article I posted is from Hermitage Works (scientific studies) - this text (I posted only couple of pages from 50+ study) is not included into Russian Monetary System. Figures 1645 & 1686 are actually not really western but arabic (strange, right?). We - I mean western civilization - just borrowed arabic inscription of digits. 1654 is the first time arabic date and 1686 is the first Russian machine made coin (I do not think that overminting western talers with hoist operated die in 1655 is quite a machine operation). Why arabic? I think that is an easy explanation - both coins were inteded for usage outside historically pure Russian regions. Devices on Cheh copied Polish troyak, for example. So this is why - to adopt the style for Ukranian territory, where European coins had been widely used in day to day operations and trades, - Russian coins bear arabic digits of Julian calendar not Russian letters of Russian calendar from creation of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 ...I think that any imperial collector will not refuse gold award coins, efimok 1655, Sevsky Chech (like mine on the picture below) and maybe couple of other denominations. I agree with Timofei. One comment on Sevsky Chech - These coin were considered very rare, until a few years ago a hoard surfaced. It killed the value of these coins for a while, but I am sure all the coins will be absorbed by collectors and value will slowly come back. Here is one more that fits the bill. This one I consider undervalued. It is a 1654 polupoltinnik (quarte rouble) of Alexei Mkihailovich. BTW. Timofei, nice new avatar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Igors, does that 1/4 ruble happen to be overstruck on a full ruble? Interesting and definately undervalued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Igors, does that 1/4 ruble happen to be overstruck on a full ruble? Interesting and definately undervalued. Actually, they were overstruck on talers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timofei Posted December 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 25, 2006 Igors, does that 1/4 ruble happen to be overstruck on a full ruble? Interesting and definately undervalued. Undervalued? Lot #99 on last Baron auction brought about 12000$. The same coin from Baron is in Moscow now and the dealer put it on sale for 22000$ I think that overvalued Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted December 25, 2006 Report Share Posted December 25, 2006 Undervalued? Lot #99 on last Baron auction brought about 12000$. The same coin from Baron is in Moscow now and the dealer put it on sale for 22000$ I think that overvalued Timofei, Baron's sale is a different story all together. Do you think from now on 1859 roubles will sell for 40,000+? Or 1808 roubles for 15K+? Or 1707 for 55K+? How is 1707 rouble better or rarer than 1654 polupoltina? Even historically polupoltina is more important and more significant. Actually, in comparison, I do not think lot 99 at Baron sold for that much. That's auction price. The new owner can ask 50k for it, if he wants. Will it sell? That's the question . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timofei Posted December 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 25, 2006 Timofei, Baron's sale is a different story all together. Do you think from now on 1859 roubles will sell for 40,000+? Or 1808 roubles for 15K+? Or 1707 for 55K+? How is 1707 rouble better or rarer than 1654 polupoltina? Even historically polupoltina is more important and more significant. Actually, in comparison, I do not think lot 99 at Baron sold for that much. That's auction price. The new owner can ask 50k for it, if he wants. Will it sell? That's the question . I do not know the answer about the prices, frankly speaking. Polupoltina is a classic rarity sought after over centuries. 1808 rouble from a freshly discovered hoard (2 weeks or so, see the picture) is offered at 8000$. Hoarded rouble! Amazing, right? Should I rush to grab the coin before somebody else does or should I recommend the dealer to see a psychiatrist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted December 26, 2006 Report Share Posted December 26, 2006 I do not know the answer about the prices, frankly speaking. Polupoltina is a classic rarity sought after over centuries. 1808 rouble from a freshly discovered hoard (2 weeks or so, see the picture) is offered at 8000$. Hoarded rouble! Amazing, right? Should I rush to grab the coin before somebody else does or should I recommend the dealer to see a psychiatrist? I like 1802-1810 roubles very much. But in this case you should recommend the dealer to seek professional help, in my opinion. At this price I do not want to see St. George that was not fully struck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted December 26, 2006 Report Share Posted December 26, 2006 But in this case you should recommend the dealer to seek professional help, in my opinion. Gentlemen, let me know if you need assistance in this field - I can help And , seriously, we'll get used to these prices very soon. Lets see what Heritage-Stacks-Markov will offer. However, the bubble will burst (sooner or later). Then, we'll be able to afford some nice stuff. The Oldman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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