Vfox Posted September 16, 2006 Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 Ok, I just read an article in USA today about the Fed warning that anyone trying to spend NORFEDs liberty dollar is commiting a crime. (I do like the concept of having small town currency, reminds me of bank issued currencies from the 1800's)......It's just, I don't think the government should really have a right to tell us what we can and can't offer as money. (remember the barter system?) It seems like they don't like the competition, although I don't think it's mainstream enough to actually be competition. I just think if you plan on using the liberty dollars, you should also plan on having a backup of FRN's just in case you get the "what are you trying to pull?" type of reaction. This was the first I've ever heard of these silver rounds and currencies even existing, so after a little research I don't think it's a bad idea. I just don't think it will work. I can see them circulating around my small town just like normal Fed issued money, but I don't see it going beyond being a local merchant kind of thing...at least, not unless major supermarkets start accepting them or something. It is appealing that the coins are made of silver, and the currency is really backed, and can be exchanged for silver, although both are overvalued by nearly $10. (So a $20 liberty gets you around $10 worth of silver, or one ounce). But, they even say it's not a metal investment, it's a currency backed by something real, not US debt. So basically I just rambled a lot there, sorry....its late and I'm tired lol. But, I would like to hear everyones thoughts on something like this, since this is the first I've ever heard them mentioned, I am pretty curious how you guys feel. In a way it reminds me of what you guys tried to do with the CP notes, except just on this site, not at a mall lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aidan Work Posted September 16, 2006 Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 Here's a link; http://www.libertydollar.org . These pieces are actually listed in Krause's 'Unusual World Coins' catalogue,because they're not proper coins. Aidan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted September 16, 2006 Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 I have some of the same feelings that you have. The inflated value of the "Liberties" probably looked minor when silver was climbing so rapidly. Not too long ago Liberties were "valued" at about $15 US and only a short time before that $10 US. I guess they adjust for inflation. I can see the Feds saying you can't use them as though they were US currency but as for trading them, it's none of their business. IMHO. BUT remember the taxman must have things that can be measured and tracked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aidan Work Posted September 16, 2006 Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 Art,the 'Liberty Dollar' notes look very much like the old U.S. Military Payment Certificates in terms of their designs.Do you agree with me? If there was an 'Unusual World Banknotes' catalogue,then the 'Liberty Dollar' notes would be listed in there,along with Canadian Tire Money notes. Aidan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vfox Posted September 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 Art,the 'Liberty Dollar' notes look very much like the old U.S. Military Payment Certificates in terms of their designs.Do you agree with me? If there was an 'Unusual World Banknotes' catalogue,then the 'Liberty Dollar' notes would be listed in there,along with Canadian Tire Money notes. Aidan. I think it would, it's like a token, and in some towns are accepted as actual cash. So I can see both the coin and the currency being part of this nations numismatic history, even if it never really takes hold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedeadpoint Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 So, let me see if I have this straight: The Liberty Dollars are being issued by a private company as a silver-backed currency. I know I should understand this but I'm in a daze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vfox Posted September 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 So, let me see if I have this straight: The Liberty Dollars are being issued by a private company as a silver-backed currency. I know I should understand this but I'm in a daze. It's basically a private company that made currency backed by silver, and silver coins containing less silver than their named value. (A $20 liberty dollar is about $10 worth of silver, but is supposed to be accepted as $20 regardless.) It's basically NORFED saying its "coupons/currency" are spendable because it's backed by real silver, that has real value, compared to our current money that is fiat. They are trying to compete with the federal reserve, which is impossible in large scale operation because nobody except Bill Gates even gets close to having enough money to make usable and truly accepted currency. NORFED's currency and coins are only spendable at places that accept them, so if some place refuses to accept it, you're out of luck spending it and have to have Federal reserve notes ready as backup. There is one MAJOR problem with this concept in my eyes. This is my personal opinion so if anyone disagrees, well, meh sorry. Anyway, it's that this currency is backed by silver, which IS affected by inflation, regardless of NORFEDs claims, it's a tradable commodity just like any other metal on the stock exchange. Which means it is completely effected by all of the markets whims. Secondly, if everyone made silver backed currency and everyone accepted it, we would be right back in the times of the colonial era without a specific, accurate monetary system. It's almost like a form of monetary anarchy; not to mention all those who would use this to their advantage, and scam millions from the public. Or what if the company that has the backed currency goes under?! That's right, it takes the silver with it, and your currency is worthless and your coinage is basically halved in value down to its base. I dno, just seems like unless we use fiat for commerce and keep metals for investments we would be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UncleBobo Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 I love that they sell it as "the inflation proof currency" while they inflated the base $10 one ounce coin up to a $20 value. That was when I lost my faith in their idea... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedeadpoint Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 Well, it sure is interesting. I'd like to hear what an economist thinks about this. It would take a LOT of popular and economic support to get me to use their currency. Of course, we could debate the real economics of money all day and probably feel a little unsecure at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 I think it would, it's like a token, and in some towns are accepted as actual cash. So I can see both the coin and the currency being part of this nations numismatic history, even if it never really takes hold. I certainly agree that they have a place in numismatic history just as the local "currencies" do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccg Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 Well, it sure is interesting. I'd like to hear what an economist thinks about this. It would take a LOT of popular and economic support to get me to use their currency. Of course, we could debate the real economics of money all day and probably feel a little unsecure at the end. I'm no economist (it'll take a while for me to get to a master's degree), but here's my thoughts, which rely on ignoring U.S. laws on alternative currencies: In the middle of the previous century, casino chips freely circulated between various casinos in Vegas. There was no reason why any casino would turn down chips from another if they could all rely on each other to cash in the chips on demand. In reality, it probably worked like a banking system, with the chips being cleared between the casinos. Use of Norfed notes would require the same. But can we even see who Norfed is?? Do they seem like someone who we can rely on? I think not. What do they make their money on? There are too many questions IMO. What it basically comes down to though, is that they are issuing a token currency. Generally speaking, nobody will accept a token in favour of real money (be it "hard" or "fiat") if they don't need to. I'm not going to touch on fiat money since that's more of a thesis type discussion which could go on forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 I'm no economist (it'll take a while for me to get to a master's degree), but here's my thoughts, which rely on ignoring U.S. laws on alternative currencies: In the middle of the previous century, casino chips freely circulated between various casinos in Vegas. There was no reason why any casino would turn down chips from another if they could all rely on each other to cash in the chips on demand. In reality, it probably worked like a banking system, with the chips being cleared between the casinos. Use of Norfed notes would require the same. But can we even see who Norfed is?? Do they seem like someone who we can rely on? I think not. What do they make their money on? There are too many questions IMO. What it basically comes down to though, is that they are issuing a token currency. Generally speaking, nobody will accept a token in favour of real money (be it "hard" or "fiat") if they don't need to. I'm not going to touch on fiat money since that's more of a thesis type discussion which could go on forever. Counterfeit and stolen chips are a big problem for the casinos. Higher value chips have implanted circuits for activation and tracking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccg Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 Counterfeit and stolen chips are a big problem for the casinos. Higher value chips have implanted circuits for activation and tracking. Definately. But for the casinos, one of the things that stopped the practise of chips flowing around was not so much counterfeiting, but the Feds, who considered the casinos to be issuing currency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aidan Work Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 Doesn't the Canadian Tire practice work in the same way as the Norfed 'Liberty Dollars' & the Ithaca Hours time-based local currency? I know that the South African town of Orania has issued its own local currency,which is called the Ora.The Ora is tied to the Rand at a 1:1 ratio. Someone should email Krause with photos of private 'banknotes' such as the 'Liberty Dollar' & the Canadian Tire notes.You can email Krause here; michaelt@krause.com or you can do it through http://numismaster.com . Aidan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vfox Posted September 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 Someone should email Krause with photos Good luck finding good scans or photos of the currency, the coin itself though, those images are easily found. Although the reverse design isn't as common on websites. Just thought I would also point out NORFED doesn't even make the coins, they have no facilities to do so, they rely on another company to actually produce the coins, which seems like a way to lose money (for norfed) in the long run by paying someone else. Also, can anyone find what how much silver NORFED actually has? I can't find a figure anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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