grivna1726 Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 I just added this coin to my collection. It is the only Kolyvan mint issue I have for this Alexander I copper type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 Darn that's a nice one there Grivna! I found the KM issue to be difficult as well. This is the only one that I got from the same mint: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 Nice 2k, gx! Kolyvan issues are definitely harder to find. I wonder why they started using mintmaster initials on the copper coins when the copper standard changed from 16 to 24 rubles/pood in 1810? I don't think they really cared that much about the weight of individual copper coins then, as long as the aggregate weight was correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elverno Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 Nice coins guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 Many thanks Grivna. What suprises me that I didn't give much thought to, was that mintmaster marks on copper coins only lasted from 1810-1839, which is an awful short period of time. Why this is done together with Ekaterinburg and Izhora mint... I don't know. The Kolyvan mint coinages (or by the Suzun mint) is most certainly an interesting one. As for the rarity of the earlier Kolyvan coinages, my best guess would be the following speculation. Early Kolyvan minting production had issues refining gold out from copper and earlier coins were struck in such planchets, not knowing how much gold they can possibly have. Not to forget that in 1832, Russia did release her first gold commemorative ruble to commemorative gold for circulation from the Kolyvan Voskresensk mint, which I guess refining technology would have improved vastly by then. Numismatic wise, this could mean that older coinages from the Kolyvan coins that did circulate would be melted down just to extract more gold out from it. And perhaps because of the scarcity of such coins after meltdown, novodels were ordered to replace them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 What suprises me that I didn't give much thought to, was that mintmaster marks on copper coins only lasted from 1810-1839, which is an awful short period of time. Why this is done together with Ekaterinburg and Izhora mint... I don't know. It does seem odd. Probably the answer is somewhere in the Russian government archives. The fact that it happened at the other mints suggests that it was the result of direction from the central government, rather than from local officials. I can understand the use of mintmaster initials on precious metal coins as a way of keeping them within official tolerances. But the copper coins had much looser standards, so I don't understand the reasoning for it. The Kolyvan mint coinages (or by the Suzun mint) is most certainly an interesting one. As for the rarity of the earlier Kolyvan coinages, my best guess would be the following speculation. Early Kolyvan minting production had issues refining gold out from copper and earlier coins were struck in such planchets, not knowing how much gold they can possibly have. Not to forget that in 1832, Russia did release her first gold commemorative ruble to commemorative gold for circulation from the Kolyvan Voskresensk mint, which I guess refining technology would have improved vastly by then. Numismatic wise, this could mean that older coinages from the Kolyvan coins that did circulate would be melted down just to extract more gold out from it. And perhaps because of the scarcity of such coins after meltdown, novodels were ordered to replace them. This theory seems reasonable, but I wonder why they would not simply have done what they did when confronted with a similar situation with the Siberian issues: just reduce the weight of the coins made from copper containing traces of precious metals. Additionally, Kolyvan seems to have turned out far fewer coins than Ekaterinburg even in the original mintage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 Very nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 Nice coins guys Thank you. That is a very impressive collection of Napoleonic medals you have assembled Elverno. Have you considered adding a Napoleonic forgery of the Russian assignats then circulating? The Napoleonic forgeries were of very high quality, even better than the real thing. Then there are the emergency Zamosc issues during the retreat from Russia through Poland. There are Russian medals related to the 1812 invasion of Russia and Alexander's pursuit of Napoleon's forces all the way back to Paris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 Very nice! Thanks, Art! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted June 28, 2006 Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 Those large copper Russians are impressive, especially when so well preserved. Both are nice, but that 1808 is fantastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted June 28, 2006 Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 It does seem odd. Probably the answer is somewhere in the Russian government archives. The fact that it happened at the other mints suggests that it was the result of direction from the central government, rather than from local officials. I can understand the use of mintmaster initials on precious metal coins as a way of keeping them within official tolerances. But the copper coins had much looser standards, so I don't understand the reasoning for it. This theory seems reasonable, but I wonder why they would not simply have done what they did when confronted with a similar situation with the Siberian issues: just reduce the weight of the coins made from copper containing traces of precious metals. Additionally, Kolyvan seems to have turned out far fewer coins than Ekaterinburg even in the original mintage. If I remember right, Siberian coinages were minted on a temporarily basis due to the shipping of copper coins from St. Petersburg / Ekaterinburg / Moscow mint unable to reach the area as planned. Opened in 1766, perhaps to help out supply copper coins to the Siberian and Eastern side of Russia, like Vladivostok. I believe Ykra, well David has made an interesting site on Siberian coins, except I cannot find it at the moment. I cannot single handly think of a reason why Siberian coins were underweight at that time compared to typical Russian coinages, but perhaps it was only meant to circulate only in Siberia. What I want to really know is how far the original Siberian coinage did circulate, as it seems that the ones surviving managed to escape the clutches of remelting, that is if it really did occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 If I remember right, Siberian coinages were minted on a temporarily basis due to the shipping of copper coins from St. Petersburg / Ekaterinburg / Moscow mint unable to reach the area as planned. Opened in 1766, perhaps to help out supply copper coins to the Siberian and Eastern side of Russia, like Vladivostok. I believe Ykra, well David has made an interesting site on Siberian coins, except I cannot find it at the moment. I cannot single handly think of a reason why Siberian coins were underweight at that time compared to typical Russian coinages, but perhaps it was only meant to circulate only in Siberia. What I want to really know is how far the original Siberian coinage did circulate, as it seems that the ones surviving managed to escape the clutches of remelting, that is if it really did occur. The Siberian coins were created to ease a local coin shortage as you say. They were lighter than the corresponding regular Russian issues because the copper contained traces of gold & silver which could not be easily separated from the copper using existing technology. This could have been done with Alexander's Kolyvan coins as well if precious metal content was a concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 Those large copper Russians are impressive, especially when so well preserved. Both are nice, but that 1808 is fantastic. Thank you, Bill. I liked the coin as soon as I saw it and it is the only Alexander I Kolyvan piatak I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted July 4, 2006 Report Share Posted July 4, 2006 If I remember right, Siberian coinages were minted on a temporarily basis due to the shipping of copper coins from St. Petersburg / Ekaterinburg / Moscow mint unable to reach the area as planned. Opened in 1766, perhaps to help out supply copper coins to the Siberian and Eastern side of Russia, like Vladivostok. I believe Ykra, well David has made an interesting site on Siberian coins, except I cannot find it at the moment. I cannot single handly think of a reason why Siberian coins were underweight at that time compared to typical Russian coinages, but perhaps it was only meant to circulate only in Siberia. What I want to really know is how far the original Siberian coinage did circulate, as it seems that the ones surviving managed to escape the clutches of remelting, that is if it really did occur. It occurs to me to mention that the Siberian coinage, and the reasons for its existence, was covered in detail by V.V. Uzdenikov. A translation of his work appeared in the Journal of the Russian Numismatic Society No. 76 (summer 2003), pages 3-14. For those interested in the Society, Steve Moulding maintains the website at http://www.russiannumismaticsociety.org/ Back issues of the Journal are available through this source. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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