extant4cell

I'll just add some pictures and you can comment... 5 kopecks:

Looking for the above... Can anyone help? I have seen / known about 5 kopeck overdates 1759/8, 1761/0, 1762/1/0, 1762/0 and 2 kopecks overedates 1758/7, 1761/0, 1761/57. There may be more, I am still looking into this. Can anyone help? May be you can show the 5 k 1759/8 overdate? I only have a picture of one side:

The format of Russian GM edition is large and pictures are of a high quality. I only have a PDF copy, and you can have it too. It's heavy, so have patience if you'll decide to download it. Catherine II Catalog 1762-1796 (311Mb) V2

I think that if SPM made the dies for EM the image would be closer to classical Dasier or Hedlinger eagles. The new 1788 EM eagle is too different from SPM understanding of what eagle should look like. EM were capable to produce their own design, however crude and brutal it looked. For the eagle side SPM only supplied EM with the tools for making their first 5 kopecks in 1758. After that you can see it's changing form from classical to the new brutal 1788 form.

Sigi, I think this is another overdate, that no one noticed before!!! From GM: Not as obvious, but it is overdate, I am pretty sure... There is nothing in GM documents about these coins change over of dies. But there is one little mentioning in the document from 31/12/1787 that apparently the EM copper coins production was stopped earlier in 1787 due to water going down and not able to power up the machines...

Thank you Sigi! I would pass it by if you didn't share your findings here and in private. Still hunting for Elisaveta's coins mainly, and accidentally found this one with a seller who was selling 2 kopecks... Always, happy to acquire and interesting coin when I can afford it. It looks like there were several dies with this overdate, which proves that their master forms were made in 1787. It makes sense to assume that master forms were made in pairs, in order to make dies for both sides. We can guess that both sides were made in 1787 and had slightly different variants in forms. Once you assume that, it's easy to assume that there was at least a sample minting done with these dies to be sent to St. Petersburg to get OK for using them in production. When Ekaterinburg got OK and started to use them in main production we don't know, but we see overdates in 1788 and some rare 1787 coins that are debated over their authenticity. What is clear to me is that there were some of these coins made in 1787, at least as a trial and sample strike. If Markov's coin is authentic or not, it is hard to judge without holding it in hand. It is less likely in my view, but anything is possible with 18th c. coins. And if it's not, there should be others that are genuine.

For the minds that don't rest, another proposed fake...

Additional information on 1787 and more on 1788 overdate pyataks: This one is a possibly genuine coin (at least there were some comments for it), though a picture is horrible... The above coin was again for sale recently at one of the auctions and was taken off the auction with undisclosed reason. Above is the verdict from "Society of Friends of State Historical Museum" stating that 1787 5 kopecks with new obv / rev is a genuine coin. There is a wide-spread criticism of some of the society expert statements when it comes to 18th c. coppers, including the one above. Below is another couple of examples of an over-date coin. If it can be doubted that the 1787 new obv / rev pyatak is genuine, it is clear that the master form(s) for 1788 pyataks were made in 1787, with the last number in the year changed from 7 to 8 for 1788 dies production.

Here is another one, due for a long journey to my mail box. "7" is not as prominent as on Sigi's coin, but overdate is unmistakable.

This is a very interesting topic, Sigi. From what I remember, the year in Russia used to start on 1 of September (or another Autumn month), until Peter I has introduced it on 1 of January. The old new year became kind of like a financial year start, and was important for reporting, let's say - how much coins were produced, but only calendar year would actually appear on the coins. Again, this is only my opinion, but the last "7" in the date on the new type coins with date 1787 that you showed is a little bit "fishy" in form, and on the two known coins it sits under a little bit different angle, which should not happen for the dies in the first year, as the date would sit on the master die. Also, that is my guess, that if the coins were in fact issued in 1787 and in a very small number as a trial, the dies would be reasonably new, and the field would be very smooth. The eagle side of the coin from Markov shows the signs of die deterioration. These are my grounds for reasonable doubts that the date on 1787 coins is genuine. So, I would leave the question of minting these coins in 1787 still open, until more coins with this date can be examined. It always kills me, with coins like that, if they are in fact fake, "how did they make them!!"... On the other hand there were some coins in the past that were deemed as fake, but turned out to be genuine. There is no doubt, though, that the dies (or at least the forms for die making) with 1787 date were made and that the over-date is genuine on your coin, and that it is a rare find by you Sigi.

Love it! Very nice presentation and some outstanding examples.

Had to edit some more, including the comments (after additional sleepless night reading ). Here is an updated version. Hope it's OK now. At least I finally feel peace inside my chest... Georgii Mikhailovich Maksimenko - 2006 Grand Duke - Life, Works, Collection rus & eng. versions

The information for my comments came largely from this thread: http://www.coinpeople.com/index.php/topic/25278-grand-duke-georgii-mikhailovich-romanov-corpus-of-russian-coins/ Hope it's OK, with you guys.