gxseries Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Never seen anything like this before: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=170349352375 What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Wouldn't put it past the French to get lazy an' pilfer someone else's coin to overstrike for a pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Never seen anything like this before: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=170349352375 What do you think? this is something new came up; one collector from us was questioning one credible russian forum on additional info of its issue and after a dozen of opinions it was stated that it can be not genuine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 this is something new came up; one collector from us was questioning one credible russian forum on additional info of its issue and after a dozen of opinions it was stated that it can be not genuine The mentioned discussion took place on the russian Old-Coin forum: http://www.staraya-moneta.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4963 Two of the principal participants are members of this forum: WCO and Bazilio. Bazilio accused one specific coin of being a modern fake. I am in no position to agree or disagree with this very knowledgeable expert. That however does not in any way suggest that such coins are new or impossible. According to WCO they have been around for years, and only in the recent years did people start paying attention to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 Wouldn't put it past the French to get lazy an' pilfer someone else's coin to overstrike for a pattern. I suppose having a ready-made flan might save some work, but why bother? It's not as if the French mint was technologically backward and incapable of producing its own flans. Additionally, it seems logical that when producing a pattern coinage, the desire would be to show the proposed design to its best advantage. Overstriking an already existing coin with the undertype visible does not seem compatible with that end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 I suppose having a ready-made flan might save some work, but why bother? It's not as if the French mint was technologically backward and incapable of producing its own flans. Additionally, it seems logical that when producing a pattern coinage, the desire would be to show the proposed design to its best advantage. Overstriking an already existing coin with the undertype visible does not seem compatible with that end. Personally I've nether had any interest in French coinage. But I have read the posts by WCO on the Staraya Moneta forum, and it appears that in 1848 there was a massive public competition in France for the new coin designs. 24 designers participated. The competition was very rigorous and very large quantities of "essai" coins were struck, some, it appears entered circulation. I don't quite understand the background and the history of this event, but it appears that these patterns are not considered to be rare or valuable by French collectors. So these coins were struck in large quantities to test the dies, a lot of them were struck on foreign coins of the appropriate size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 I doubt that this is any more than a coincidence but this 2 kopeeks which is apparently the size of 10 centimes is also overdated with 1848 - the year of that contest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted June 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 I suppose having a ready-made flan might save some work, but why bother? It's not as if the French mint was technologically backward and incapable of producing its own flans. Additionally, it seems logical that when producing a pattern coinage, the desire would be to show the proposed design to its best advantage. Overstriking an already existing coin with the undertype visible does not seem compatible with that end. That's what I originally thought grivna and this coin made no sense to me at all initially. SMS pointed out the importance of the year 1848 in France - that's when the French revolution happened. More information can be read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutions_of_1848_in_France As I have no idea what was going on with the French mint back then, I can only guess that there could have been a chaotic period when the revolution happened. I would not be too suprised if there have been some supply issues and this was just done as a test which was supposed to be destroyed and forgotten about. I just think it's a bit too early to discount the possibility that such overstrike coin can happen. We probably will need to ask the experts that are specialized in French coinage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 ...it appears that these patterns are not considered to be rare or valuable by French collectors. So these coins were struck in large quantities to test the dies, a lot of them were struck on foreign coins of the appropriate size. Thank you for the information (which suggests that these might exist as overstrikes on other nation's coins, not just Russian coins). I do not understand striking large quantities for the purpose of testing the dies. This seems unrelated to a design competition and more likely due to the quality of hardening the dies (something that I think would be a concern dealt with by the mint for the final approved design when it was produced for circulation). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 I just think it's a bit too early to discount the possibility that such overstrike coin can happen. We probably will need to ask the experts that are specialized in French coinage. I agree that we know too little to make any firm conclusions and comments from someone with expertise in the matter of French essai coins would make a valuable addition to this discussion. I just find some parts of this puzzling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted June 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 There might be a reason for this: http://wapedia.mobi/en/French_franc?t=2. The first coins were issued in denominations of 1 and 5 centimes, 1 and 2 decimes (in copper), quarter, half, 1, 2, and 5 francs (in silver), and 20 and 40 francs (in gold). Copper coins were not issued between 1801 and 1848, leaving the quarter-franc as the smallest coin being minted. During this period, copper coins from the previous currency system circulated, with a one-sou coin being valued at 5 centimes. Bronze coinage was introduced from 1848, and coins worth 1, 2, 5 and 10 centimes were issued from 1853. The quarter-franc was discontinued, with silver 20-centime coins issued between 1849 and 1868. The gold coinage also changed at this time, with 40- franc coins no longer produced and 5-, 10-, 50- and 100-franc coins introduced. The last gold 5-franc pieces were minted in 1869, and silver 5-franc coins were last minted in 1878. Nickel 25-centime coins were introduced in 1903. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 There might be a reason for this: http://wapedia.mobi/en/French_franc?t=2. Okay, that might explain the overstriking on foreign coins. If the French government was planning to issue a large 10 centime coin (presumably in copper) which was not a denomination currently made, then maybe the equipment to manufacture blank flans for that size and metal might have been inconvenient and the use of foereign copper coins that met the specified size might have been seen as a solution. On the other hand, the art of minting was advanced in France in that time (one of the reasons Peter I chose to visit the Paris mint in 1717, which produced the elegant medal by Du Vivier at the time). It seems difficult to believe that the Mint could not overcome such an inconvenience and produce blank flans to spec if it wished to do so. The fact that they did not suggests that the Mint may have simply tolerated the competition as an officially-inspired nuisance rather than as something worthy of the Mint's enthusiastic support and encouragement. If so, that might have resulted in the described negative collector attitude toward them ("it appears that these patterns are not considered to be rare or valuable by French collectors."). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 Never seen anything like this before: What do you think? HISTORICAL FRENCH BIZARRE: The Revolution of 1848. Louis Philippe and his ministers resisted all pressures to adapt the nation's political institutions to the changing economy and society, particularly resisting an extension of the suffrage. The government's rigidity and the serious economic depression in 1846–47 undermined the regime's support and caused many to look to a republic as an alternative. In February 1848 the government's clumsy effort to prevent a Republican rally in Paris led to a clash between troops and demonstrators that turned into revolution. Louis Philippe abdicated on February 24. A group of Republican leaders formed a provisional government and proclaimed the Second French Republic. THE SECOND REPUBLIC AND SECOND EMPIRE During the first four months of the Second Republic, from February to June 1848, the moderate Republicans, who sought only political change, and radical Republicans, who wanted social reform as well, struggled for control of the Republic. Elections in April returned a majority of moderates and conservatives to the Constituent Assembly, and their measures against the radicals led to a new insurrection—the June Days, three days of bloody street fighting in Paris. The crushing of the insurrection ensured the conservative nature of the Republic and created among the bourgeoisie a fear of working-class radicalism that influenced French politics for the next quarter-century. The constitution adopted in November 1848 established a presidential republic with a single assembly, both president and assembly to be chosen by universal male suffrage. Louis Napoleon Bonaparte, nephew of the Emperor Napoleon, won the presidency by an overwhelming vote, and parliamentary elections gave a majority to Monarchists hostile to the Republic and fearful of Louis Napoleon—a combination that made effective government difficult. Radical Republicans, who had won a third of the seats, alarmed property owners large and small by talk of winning control of the government in 1852, the year of the next presidential and parliamentary elections. Louis Napoleon, posing as the savior of society from radical revolution, took power into his own hands in a coup d'état on Dec. 2, 1851, and gave France a new constitution. A year later he restored the empire and took the title of Napoleon III (Napoleon I's son, Napoleon II, never reigned). Until 1860 Napoleon III governed France as an authoritarian ruler, but beginning in 1860 he began voluntarily to shift authority from himself to the legislative houses. By 1870 France was again a parliamentary monarchy and had a responsible ministry. The Latin Monetary Union was a 19th century attempt to unify several European currencies into a single currency that could be used in all the member states, at a time when most national currencies were still made out of gold and silver. In 1865, France, Belgium, Italy, and Switzerland (from 1868 Greece and from 1889 Romania, also Austria, Bulgaria, Venezuela, Serbia, Montenegro, San Marino and the Papal State joined the union) agreed to change their national currencies to a standard of 4.5 grams of silver or 0.290322 grams of gold (a ratio of 15.5 to 1) and make them freely interchangeable. Copper coins were not issued between 1801 and 1848, leaving the quarter-franc as the smallest coin being minted. During this period, copper coins from the previous currency system circulated, with a one-sou coin being valued at 5 centimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted June 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 Grivna, I have been thinking for a while and thought how bizarre it would be supposedly if this is indeed a fake coin. Suppose if this is a fake coin to begin with, would the French mint bother to counterfeit a 2 kopek and then overstrike it? I don't think it's realistic at all unless the French mint was involved with a counterfeit operation. Let's take this in another context - would the story of the 1804 US dollar overstruck 1857 Swiss thaler remind anyone of anything? The dies used are original but the planchet isn't. Could something similiar apply to this scenario? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 Grivna, I have been thinking for a while and thought how bizarre it would be supposedly if this is indeed a fake coin. Suppose if this is a fake coin to begin with, would the French mint bother to counterfeit a 2 kopek and then overstrike it? I don't think it's realistic at all unless the French mint was involved with a counterfeit operation. Let's take this in another context - would the story of the 1804 US dollar overstruck 1857 Swiss thaler remind anyone of anything? The dies used are original but the planchet isn't. Could something similiar apply to this scenario? I doubt the French Mint would be counterfeiting Russian copper coins. Certainly governments did forge coins that were widely accepted. The Russian imitations of the Dutch ducat and Wellington's forgeries of Napoleonic gold are cases in point. But these were gold coins of honest weight. The "1780" Maria Theresa taler was struck by numerous governments for trade purposes. Forged British sovereigns are still made privately (again of honest weight) not to cheat or deceive, but simply as a convenient form of recognizable bullion. Faking copper coins would only have a purpose (aside from cheating collectors) if the copper coins face value was grossly inflated in terms of its metal content, as in the 1720s in Russia when the country was flooded with counterfeit copper because of the large profit that could be made. Even if the French government was secretly counterfeiting Russian copper, it would make no sense to then use the fake "Russian" coins as blanks for overstriking, unless that counterfeiting operation had been discovered and protested by the Russian government (in which case it would likely be well known). If memory is correct, Russian soldiers were occupying Paris by 1815 following Napoleon's defeat. It is possible the soldiers might have had some copper coins in their possession there that might have ended up being overstruck. I am not familiar with all the various 1804 dollar issues, but my guess is that the one overstruck on a shooting taler might have been made that way deliberately, much as some novodels were made with muled dies, wrong metals, wrong weights etc in order to make them more "interesting". I do think we need to hear from a specialist in French coinage regarding these French patterns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 no one says here that French mint could have couterfeited russian coins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheburgen Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 The mentioned discussion took place on the russian Old-Coin forum:http://www.staraya-moneta.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4963 Two of the principal participants are members of this forum: WCO and Bazilio. Bazilio accused one specific coin of being a modern fake. I am in no position to agree or disagree with this very knowledgeable expert. That however does not in any way suggest that such coins are new or impossible. According to WCO they have been around for years, and only in the recent years did people start paying attention to them. <Bazilio accused one specific coin of being a modern fake. I am in no position to agree or disagree with this very knowledgeable expert. Who said that this Basilio is "very knowledgeable expert"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 <Bazilio accused one specific coin of being a modern fake. I am in no position to agree or disagree with this very knowledgeable expert. Who said that this Basilio is "very knowledgeable expert"? MIM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 Never seen anything like this before:What do you think? ended at $317.00 with 2 bids ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheburgen Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 MIM What is MIM? If you mean Coins and Medals are YOU in full autorization to say that this Basilio is official expert for this HOUSE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 What is MIM? If you mean Coins and Medals are YOU in full autorization to say that this Basilio is official expert for this HOUSE? why we dont't discuss a subject but digging out who said and what? do you have any highlights on a competion which took a place in France on an issue of this pattern coin, if so please share with us what you have, thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 What is MIM? If you mean Coins and Medals are YOU in full autorization to say that this Basilio is official expert for this HOUSE? I am also not sure why we are moving into this discussion, but yes I believe I saw his real name mentioned somewhere on the Moneti I Medali site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 If memory is correct, Russian soldiers were occupying Paris by 1815 following Napoleon's defeat. It is possible the soldiers might have had some copper coins in their possession there that might have ended up being overstruck. I don't know if France mined much copper at the time. For the projected copper coinage however much copper was needed. How about the hypothesis that France imported that copper in the form of obsolete coins? And that maybe a few trials were made with them? Sigi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 I don't know if France mined much copper at the time. For the projected copper coinage however much copper was needed. How about the hypothesis that France imported that copper in the form of obsolete coins? And that maybe a few trials were made with them? Sigi Sounds reasonable to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Never seen anything like this before: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=170349352375 What do you think? I think this discussion should focus on searching the 1848 French competition for new coin design which can bring some highlights and facts on it !!! the answer would be here: <<<< it appears that in 1848 there was a massive public competition in France for the new coin designs. 24 designers participated. The competition was very rigorous and very large quantities of "essai" coins were struck, some, it appears entered circulation. I don't quite understand the background and the history of this event, but it appears that these patterns are not considered to be rare or valuable by French collectors. So these coins were struck in large quantities to test the dies, a lot of them were struck on foreign coins of the appropriate size.>>>> one recent forum from this respectable site has been already discussed possibility that russian army could have left some change on France territory (or ohters) but this is only hypothesises and guesses instead of real facts can be found and consider over here what really happen in France at coin preparation competition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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