gxseries Posted June 12, 2006 Report Share Posted June 12, 2006 Unusual Variant? What makes me very intrigued is the possiblity overdate of 4 over 3. But this does not make ANY sense as 1830's design was the wings down series and of a totally different design. I was guessing that it might be a modified 1850 to a 1840 to make it a "fantasy" rarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 12, 2006 Report Share Posted June 12, 2006 I don't know if that one is real. The date might have been altered after it left the mint. Severin-3337 is described as "Eagle tail curved. Rv.: Date re-engraved" (which isn't very helpful) and it is listed as common. I recommend extreme caution with this seller. I see quite a few of the coins being offered are almost certainly fakes, including a 1767 СПБ (!!) polupoltinnik of questionable style and unknown to great numismatists like Giel, Ilyin and the Grand Duke! (yeah, right). The grotesque 1867-EM polushka is another highly questionable coin. Same for the 1726 Menshikov grivennik and the excessively rare 1 kopek plate (which looks like it was made by a forger who had no idea of what the real ones look like), just to mention a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted June 12, 2006 Report Share Posted June 12, 2006 Look through the rest of the 18th and 19th century fakes and you will see that Grivna1726 is onto something here, they are all forgeries, and some are rather crude basement style forgeries. PS this stuff is all garbage that can be bought from a street vendor in Moscow or Sankt Peterburg for about 10 Rubles each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 12, 2006 Report Share Posted June 12, 2006 PS this stuff is all garbage that can be bought from a street vendor in Moscow or Sankt Peterburg for about 10 Rubles each. 10 rubles works out to about 37 cents. Still overpriced! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted June 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2006 1 ruble for 1 ruble!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 12, 2006 Report Share Posted June 12, 2006 1 ruble for 1 ruble!!! Sounds about right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 While I agree with grivna1726 concerning this eBay seller's reputation, I can't agree that this could be a real coin with an altered date. If it were an altered coin, it couldn't have been 1830 because this would have a totally different design (wings-down type). The eagle reverse is c7 going by the Julian catalog which would correspond to Julian 1072 -- the most common (known) variety for 1840. Of course, there are four varieties with the c7 eagle. We can rule out two of those rare varieties (misspellings), but since we can't look at the edge of this coin, we cannot rule out 1073a (27 21/25 on the edge). However, there is the very real possibility that it is just a crude fake with an intentional overdate to make it "interesting". I'd want to weigh the coin first, given this seller's reputation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 While I agree with grivna1726 concerning this eBay seller's reputation, I can't agree that this could be a real coin with an altered date. If it were an altered coin, it couldn't have been 1830 because this would have a totally different design (wings-down type). The eagle reverse is c7 going by the Julian catalog which would correspond to Julian 1072 -- the most common (known) variety for 1840. Of course, there are four varieties with the c7 eagle. We can rule out two of those rare varieties (misspellings), but since we can't look at the edge of this coin, we cannot rule out 1073a (27 21/25 on the edge). However, there is the very real possibility that it is just a crude fake with an intentional overdate to make it "interesting". I'd want to weigh the coin first, given this seller's reputation. It could be that it was minted after 1840 (as gx suggested), no? In any event, if that is both a genuine coin with an unaltered date, then I will be genuinely shocked. The picture has been heavily compressed and there are many resulting artifacts in the date area. Even so, I see what looks to me like tooling marks around the 4 in the date. I don't know the seller or his or her "reputation". But I do know a poor fake that doesn't even remotely resemble the real thing (like that kopek plate which is accurate only to the extent that it is apparently made of copper and square in its shape). Maybe the seller is just an incompetent numismatist. I don't know that he or she is deliberately selling fakes, although I think that might be the case. Whatever the cause, I'd at least exercise extreme caution, if not avoid the seller completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 The overdate 1840/3- (NOT 1840/30) has been seen several times. The reverse die was probably made in late 1838 when it was unclear if the die would be used in 1838 or 1839. For this reason only the first three digits (183) were punched into the die. The 1839 regular-issue coinage proved to be very small and the die was not used. It was then overdated in 1840. None of this is to say that the piece is genuine. The jpegs are too crude to be certain. It does look normal but then this seller does offer a rather large number of fakes on eBay on a regular basis. RW Julian Thanks to Bobh for pointing me to this site! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted June 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2006 Actually what Julian said does make full sense, as it seems that the Russian mintmaster seem to produce a large number of dies, and leaving the last digit to be punched in much later. The above coin is an excellent example of such "later punched" year. While I would love to see the coin in real life, I'll pass on the offer. Btw welcome to the forum Julian!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 14, 2006 Report Share Posted June 14, 2006 The overdate 1840/3- (NOT 1840/30) has been seen several times. The reverse die was probably made in late 1838 when it was unclear if the die would be used in 1838 or 1839. For this reason only the first three digits (183) were punched into the die. The 1839 regular-issue coinage proved to be very small and the die was not used. It was then overdated in 1840. None of this is to say that the piece is genuine. The jpegs are too crude to be certain. It does look normal but then this seller does offer a rather large number of fakes on eBay on a regular basis. RW Julian Thanks to Bobh for pointing me to this site! Thank you for this most helpful and informative post. And welcome to Coin People! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted June 14, 2006 Report Share Posted June 14, 2006 Thanks to Bobh for pointing me to this site! Welcome, RW! Glad to see you made it here (hey, another "Bob"!). I hope you have less troubles accessing this forum with your internet service than you have had in the past with the newsgroups (e.g. RCC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted July 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2006 Here is another example that up on the net: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=230011137119 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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