gorpol Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Hello everyone, I have a query about a coin I found recently.. Charles 1st Halfcrown. I would like any help regarding the legend on this coin... the word `CAROLUS`appears to contain two Cs .. does anyone have an explanation for this... thanking you in advance..Gorpol.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmarotta Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Fake. Based on (over my limit) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gorpol Posted January 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Thanks for a quick reply,only the coin in question was found whilst metal detecting in middle England and found in the company of other coins pictured here.. What is the basis of your answer? that it `s a fake..and what do you make of the mintmark.....Gorpol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuldFartte Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Don't know what to make of that, but others here might. If you'll notice, there are three of those large "C's" - the one you showed, one at about 4:00 and one at almost 6:00. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Thanks for a quick reply,only thecoin in question was found whilst metal detecting in middle England and found in the company of other coins pictured here.. What is the basis of your answer? that it `s a fake..and what do you make of the mintmark.....Gorpol... It would be useful if you could provide a scan of the coin in colour and at a higher resolution. It is always difficult determining the legitimacy of coins from a scan, so the more definition the better. My initial thoughts were that it has simply been overstruck (second C looks like it has been struck over an A) or the moneyer decided to give it a second `whack'. I'd like to see it in colour to determine if it looks like silver or not. Can't tell from that image. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gorpol Posted January 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Hi Ian, Thanks for replying, I don’t have a scanner but will post a better photo for you tomorrow. I would just like to say that I see/handle a lot of Medieval coins and this one looks and feels genuine, I have posted this on a local forum and has been seen by a few knowledgeable coin people, but to date not had a satisfactory answer, (I think the coin is right). When looking closely at the first two letters they are not of the same form i.e. the second one is much wider across the waist.. also if it was a double strike then surely this would affect the whole word??. I just thought I would try once more in the wider world of numismatics before putting a question mark on its I.D card.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Hi, I've seen a good few coins of that era (european) that have blundered legends, overstruck on host coins doube or triple struck on orignal blank flans, repunched letters etc etc.. French coinage in particular is rife with such anomalies. They were masters of recycling their old coins through overstriking new designs on the old. Now, I have no reason to doubt that you know what a real coin looks and feels like and that being the case IF that is a genuine coin THEN to me it looks like it was struck twice but with the die rotated by a letter or two, hence the reason why the `c' looks different. To my eye the second `c' and other letters in the `Carolus' have been struck over the legend created by the first strike. There may (or may not) be evidence of it having been struck twice elsewhere on the coin, but as I said, there is no way for any of us to tell from that image. Normally a coin would only be struck twice if the intial strike had failed to define the coin clearly enough. For example a weak first strike might have defined only part of the legends and failed to define the effigy of the king.... or whatever. It would be nigh on impossible to get a perfect alignment to the dies for any second or subsequent whacks by the moneyer. Judging by the standards of that whole series I doubt if anyone would have bothered to try to align them anyway. A nice curiosity in any event. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gorpol Posted January 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 Hello Ian, Well that’s a very plausible explanation, thank you for your opinion. I did think the word `CAROLUS` was a little cramped up to the word stop i.e. to far clockwise...in fact by about a character. In the numismatic world how do such anomalies affect a coins market value? I will let this topic run its course and see if anyone else has anything to add, failing that I will close and thank you for you’re input and interest shown... Regards Gorpol... U.K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted January 21, 2006 Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 In the numismatic world how do such anomalies affecta coins market value? I would struggle to give you any enlightenment there my friend. The right collector being in the right place at the right time...who knows. That's half the battle when it comes to selling and trying to get the so called `market value'. To be honest, in my opinion I don't think it would increase the value significantly as far as UK collectors are concerned due to the fact that the issues are pretty crude to start with. An anomally such as that might be seen to add a touch of `character' as far as some (but not all) collectors are concerned. If you were to do a bit of `marketing' in a description and try selling it on ebay, who knows what you might catch on the end of the dangled fishing line. Maybe you'd catch a `merkin error coin collector with dollars to spend. ;-) bon chance! Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ætheling Posted January 21, 2006 Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 I agree with Ian on this one, he just beat me to it in this event! I've seen some fairly miraculous rotated die 'errors' on Henry III coinage, so i can well believe Ian's assumption in this instance. From the scan i have no reason to think the coin is a fake. Although i'll put my hand up and admit that this is much, much later than anything i usually deal in. As for market value it's hard to say. I once had chance to buy a Cnut penny that had an error, CCNVT (rather than CNVT) and the price was exactly the same as it would have been if the extra C hadn't been there. Tudor/Stuart coinage is a bit different. A good portrait is usually what wins the day, often at the expense of the legends. Although the frustrating nature of these coins is that if the legends are good the portrait is weak, if the portrait's good the legends are the failing point. Any the biggest annoyance of them all with hammered coinage, how comes some of the coins cut in half show the most perfect strike imaginable? Totally defined strong legends and nice strike on the portrait/cross. *grrr* So basically what i'm saying such an occurence as blundered legands shouldn't alter the price much i shouldn't think, these things tend to sell on eye appeal more than anything and that varies from person to person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted January 21, 2006 Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 I concur with Aetheling and Ian in consideration of your piece, I do not believe it is a fake, and the first respondent fired off without seeing the whole of the piece. That said, errors from this period of coinage are quite a bit more common than modern ones. Especially hammered coins. I have 2 X struck coin from the reign of Henry III(1216-1272), it is one of the later longcross pennies, however there appears to be a five pointed star, because of the double struck reverse on the piece. It was struck in the city of Lincoln, so I categorically believe it is the earlies known double struck Lincoln Penny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ætheling Posted January 21, 2006 Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 It was struck in the city of Lincoln, so I categorically believe it is the earlies known double struck Lincoln Penny I like it! ...positive thinking. Side question; is it 'LINCOLN' or 'NICOLE' on that coin of yours? I know it changed from the latter to the former sometime but without looking it up i cannot recall exactly when, was either Short to Long or Long to New recoinages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted January 21, 2006 Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 I like it! ...positive thinking. Side question; is it 'LINCOLN' or 'NICOLE' on that coin of yours? I know it changed from the latter to the former sometime but without looking it up i cannot recall exactly when, was either Short to Long or Long to New recoinages. It is Ion on Nicole, gees to think they had minters named Ian back then even. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gorpol Posted January 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 Again thanks for all your replies/thoughts. If you don`t mind I will close leaving you with photographs of my favourite coins, all found whilst detecting in Lincolnshire. I hasten to add that I have been detecting for twenty five years (not a get rich quick hobby). Only ever found one hammered of the Linncoln mint!! Best wishes to you all.... Gorpol....UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ætheling Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 It is Ion on Nicole, gees to think they had minters named Ian back then even. John most likely... but then i think you knew that. That said though, i know Ian has his fingers in alot of pies, i didn't know he was THAT old though! Mind you Tiff has a coin that proves i am older. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 John most likely... but then i think you knew that. That said though, i know Ian has his fingers in alot of pies, i didn't know he was THAT old though! Mind you Tiff has a coin that proves i am older. Yes...well erm...though my memory isn't all that it once was, i've not developed any signs of mould (as yet), so I doubt that it was not `I' (he said in his very best Rastafarian accent). Ian (a name oft likened to or derived from Iohan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ætheling Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 Some nice stuff you've found there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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