gxseries Posted September 24, 2005 Report Share Posted September 24, 2005 Not my coin, it's Livius's one. I'm just helping him out as he seems to have problem posting with his webtv. Does anyone know what it is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted September 24, 2005 Report Share Posted September 24, 2005 It claims to be a coin of Istros (Moesia inferior) circa 400 -350 BC. There's part of the legend which when changed into english lettering gives you (I)STRIN. The obverse represents the celestial twins Castor and Pollux. The reverse is a sea eagle attacking a dolphin. The actual denomination is dependent upon size / weight. * Please be aware that this coin type has been the subject of forgery. I'm not too sure from the scan provided whether it is a genuine coin or not. The colouration looks awfully pasty, the surface looks a little pock marked (as if cast) and the design of the dolphin look to me to be a bit off, but there are many variations, so it might just be me. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlueke Posted September 24, 2005 Report Share Posted September 24, 2005 The actual denomination is dependent upon size / weight. * Please be aware that this coin type has been the subject of forgery. I'm not too sure from the scan provided whether it is a genuine coin or not. The colouration looks awfully pasty, the surface looks a little pock marked (as if cast) and the design of the dolphin look to me to be a bit off, but there are many variations, so it might just be me. Ian The size and weight would be good to know for authentication as well. The pockmarks can easily be corrosion, I find that casting bubbles are a little more subtle and usually appear clearly only under magnification. But the seam or the fle marks are usually the most visible signs. Look at the coin around the entuire edge and if you see filing or a seam then bingo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banivechi Posted September 24, 2005 Report Share Posted September 24, 2005 I saw many of Histria's Drachmes, but this type of dolphin is new for me... A scan of the edge can be helpful to see if it's a counterfeit, but as Ian says, 90% of these coins on the market are "new". I suspect that inclusive the Istros drachmes shown in Constanta's museum of history and archaeology (40 km of Histria) are fakes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livius Posted September 24, 2005 Report Share Posted September 24, 2005 - I did find this ancient coin in the sands of Mamaia - Navodari on the Black Sea in Romania, a few miles north of the town of Constanta. The coin was completely darkened and it was burried in the sands [about 2 ft deep]. It is a silver coin and I'm 100% sure it is NOT a fake. I found it in mid-1960s. The two faces show the "Dioscuri", the symbol of Danube river which in older times people did believe was going both ways. The other side shows the eagle on top of the dolphin with a monogram below. I don't know the meaning of that monogram. The "eagle and the dolphin" was the emblem of Histros [town of Histria] located on the western side of the "Pontus Euxinus" [black Sea of today]. This is the oldest coin ever issued on the territory which today is Romania [i was born there]. The coin is made of silver, it has the size of an American "penny" [thicker anyway] and it weigs about 5-6 grams. Above the eagle the coin ["Drachm"] is marked "ISTPIH". The coin has a concave shape and it is a real BEAUTY. Thanks for looking, Livius 09/24/05 Note: This type of Histrian drachm was issued sometime between 300-400 BC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livius Posted September 24, 2005 Report Share Posted September 24, 2005 - I should mention that Romania is the second country [after Italy] where large amounts of Roman coins have been found. At the same time ancient Greek coins have been found especially by the Black Sea coast where the Romanian towns of Constanta, Mamaia, Mangalia and Costinesti are located [the member "banivechi" - "old coins/money" lives there and knows what I mean]. Livius 09/24/05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banivechi Posted September 24, 2005 Report Share Posted September 24, 2005 It looks very nice for a coin hidden more than 2000 years in sand (in comparison with 8 Reales coins found in Spanish gallions shipwrecks). It was in a jar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmarotta Posted September 24, 2005 Report Share Posted September 24, 2005 Even before I read the finder's story, the coin looked OK to me. One problem with modern fakes is that they look too good. This looked like an ancient coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted September 25, 2005 Report Share Posted September 25, 2005 Even before I read the finder's story, the coin looked OK to me. One problem with modern fakes is that they look too good. This looked like an ancient coin. So, let me gert this right. You think the colour of the metal in the image looks hunky dory and unquestionably `ancient'? You think that the Dolphin a good match for the type? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted September 25, 2005 Report Share Posted September 25, 2005 - I did find this ancient coin in the sands of Mamaia - Navodari on the Black Sea in Romania, a few miles north of the town of Constanta. The coin was completely darkened and it was burried in the sands [about 2 ft deep]. It is a silver coin and I'm 100% sure it is NOT a fake. I found it in mid-1960s. The two faces show the "Dioscuri", the symbol of Danube river which in older times people did believe was going both ways. The other side shows the eagle on top of the dolphin with a monogram below. I don't know the meaning of that monogram. The "eagle and the dolphin" was the emblem of Histros [town of Histria] located on the western side of the "Pontus Euxinus" [black Sea of today]. This is the oldest coin ever issued on the territory which today is Romania [i was born there]. The coin is made of silver, it has the size of an American "penny" [thicker anyway] and it weigs about 5-6 grams. Above the eagle the coin ["Drachm"] is marked "ISTPIH". The coin has a concave shape and it is a real BEAUTY. Thanks for looking, Livius 09/24/05 Note: This type of Histrian drachm was issued sometime between 300-400 BC. Can I ask a stupid question? Why did you have the coin posted under the title `Does anyone recognise this coin?' if you already know what it is, where it is from, its denomination? You appear to already know everything about the coin right down to the depth of the sand it was found under. The only thing you seem to be missing is the name of the person who put it there, and their reason for doing so. By the way, just in case you didn't know, the Dioscuroi are individually named Castor and Pollux. What you might not know however (at least you haven't mentioned it) is that on these coins from Istros, sometimes the face on the left (Castor?) is facing up. Sometimes he is facing down (as per the examples below from my own collection). Is there any particular reason for this? Seasonal variation? The celestial twins liked to keep on the move? Different mints involved? The same design was used on fractional issues, (obols and trihemiobols) hence weight and dimension are indeed a determinant of the denomination and while you might be able to guess the denomination from an image, you stand a very good possibility of being wrong. Even within the drachm denomination there is a very significant variation on the weights sometimes nearly a whole gram, and this over a very short period of time. Can you provide us with what the thinking is on this? Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlueke Posted September 25, 2005 Report Share Posted September 25, 2005 Can I ask a stupid question? Why did you have the coin posted under the title `Does anyone recognise this coin?' if you already know what it is, where it is from, its denomination? You appear to already know everything about the coin right down to the depth of the sand it was found under. The only thing you seem to be missing is the name of the person who put it there, and their reason for doing so. That's a good question not a stupid one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livius Posted September 25, 2005 Report Share Posted September 25, 2005 - Ian, you should notice that I'm NOT the guy who started this topic. Another member helped me to post my picture here. I have had problems posting here with my WebTV. --- Because it is my coin I do know what I have. It was not in jar when I found it, it was looking just like a small stone of dark color in the 2 ft deep sands. That it was about 40 years ago. --- "Dioscuri" can be interpretated in many ways, like you said, like I wrote above in my comment or like "the rising and setting sun and the two branches of the Danube river". Istros [or "Histros" or "Histria" ] is considered the oldest Greek colony on the Black Sea [founded around 650 BC]. I visited those ruins twice when I was living in Romania. --- Anyone can see the two young male heads facing [side by side], one upright and one inverted. Anyone can also see the mark ISTPIH over the sea eagle clawing a dolphin [the symbol of Histros ancient town] over a Greek monogram [legend]. --- There are varieties of this ancient Greek coin as you can see here at http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/thrace/istros/i.html To me this coin I have it's the world's beautiful early coin from the ancient Greek world and the Black Sea area - Istros. This silver coin is about 18-19mm in diameter and weighs about 5-6 grams but there are varieties which are a little different. NOTE: Ian, to me it's not important what you do think about my coin, it is important what this coin really is. Some of you guys here are really paranoic about the coin color and silver patina. This can be alterated in any photo and the most important thig is: a little amount of Iodine Tincture [2%] can altered the silver making it darker in the tone you wish. I wanted my coin to be seen here considering that you guys are interested in coins. This is the only one reason. If I'm not welcome here I won't post anything anymore in the future. I've always though we can learn from each other. Thanks for looking, Livius 09/25/05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livius Posted September 25, 2005 Report Share Posted September 25, 2005 - I think I should mention here something important about SILVER and any SILVER COIN. Silver patina means absolutely nothing to me. Take a nice clean bright silver coin. Put a little amount of Iodine Tincture [2%] on a piece of cotton and rub the silver coin. The silver coin will become dark, how dark you want to be because the process can be controled. In this way the silver coin looks like is dirty and old. Mix a little amount of Sodium Bicarbonate [people take it for stomach] with a few drops of Vinegar and using a cotton piece start cleaning the "dirty" silver coin. You also can use for cleaning "ash" from a cigarette but the cleaning process will take a little longer. The silver coin can be cleaned completely or some "dark tone/patina" can be left. As you can see it is extremely easy to alterate and control the silver patina. This is why the silver patina and the way the silver coins look means NOTHING to me. I hope many of you learn something today. Thanks for looking, Livius 09/25/05 Note: The method explained above is also good for checking the silver coin. There are other methods too, methods used in the lab or by jewelery guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ageka Posted September 25, 2005 Report Share Posted September 25, 2005 your sulfur or iodene color will go away in acetone solvent so yes the color means nothing but people who know will recognize artificial coloring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted September 25, 2005 Report Share Posted September 25, 2005 "Dioscuri" can be interpretated in many ways. You can make the images portrayed as being Bill and Ben, or Mutt and Jeff...anything or anyone really. But as soon as you say `Dioscuroi' you are using a term that is specific to Castor and Pollox. They ARE the `Dioscuroi'. They (Castor and Pollux) can be held to represent the Danube and its tributary much the same way as Athena represents Athens. But Athena is still Athena. The Dioscuroi are still the Dioscuroi. Istros [or "Histros" or "Histria" ] is considered the oldest Greek colony on the Black Sea [founded around 650 BC]. I visited those ruins twice when I was living in Romania. --- Anyone can see the two young male heads facing [side by side], one upright and one inverted. Anyone can also see the mark ISTPIH over the sea eagle clawing a dolphin [the symbol of Histros ancient town] over a Greek monogram [legend]. Actually, from your coin you can only see `STRIN' the `I' is off the flan. The Sea eagle clawing at the dolphin is also a symbol used on the coinage of Sinope in Paphlagonia within the same time frame (the southern coast of the Black Sea). To me this coin I have it's the world's beautiful early coin from the ancient Greek world and the Black Sea area - Istros. This silver coin is about 18-19mm in diameter and weighs about 5-6 grams but there are varieties which are a little different. NOTE: Ian, to me it's not important what you do think about my coin, it is important what this coin really is. [legend]. As i've already said, you should be aware that this coin type is heavily (and I mean HEAVILY) counterfeited. One particular `hoard' find was laced with fakes and was sold all over the world. This coin type appears on ebay with remarkable frequency and is probably one of the most commonly available early Greek coins at this moment in time. Fakes of the type used to make regular appearances on ebay until ebay started to realise they were losing business as a consequence of their slack `policing'. They sometimes still do. All collectors should be aware of this. Yes, the coin type is beautiful IF you manage to get a genuine one. If yours is genuine, (and who am I to doubt you), then bravo for you and your remarkable find. To be perfectly honest from that image it just doesn't look like it to me (for the reasons I have already mentioned). The images are all that I or anyone else had to go on before you responded. Some of you guys here are really paranoic about the coin color and silver patina. This can be alterated in any photo and the most important thig is: a little amount of Iodine Tincture [2%] can altered the silver making it darker in the tone you wish. [legend]. While I do not claim any particular expertise, I have made a point of studying both genuine and fake coins (including some of this particular type). There are plenty of fake coins out there, many of them emanating from Bulgaria and Romania. It would be irresponsible not to point out that `all that glitters is not gold'. In the case of these Dioscuroi / Sea Eagle /Dolphin type coins it is highly irresponsible not to point out that the type is heavily counterfeited. That is not paranoia. That is a very well documented fact. I was less than certain concerning the one in the original image and said so. Whatever you did to the coin in cleaning it, to me it looks `pasty'. Of course, it might just be the image, but it still looks pasty. I wanted my coin to be seen here considering that you guys are interested in coins. This is the only one reason. If I'm not welcome here I won't post anything anymore in the future. I've always though we can learn from each other. Thanks for looking, Livius 09/25/05 Anyone is welcome to show off their coins and post here. The original post looks like the original poster was posting on your behalf because you were seeking information concerning the coin (?). This I provided. If you are showing off a coin (or in this case having someone do it for you), then adding in the information concerning what it is, its provenance, and authenticity from the outset would have been useful and more user friendly. For a start, it would have prevented me from bothering to tell you what you already know, as well as bothering to mention stuff you obviously don't want to know. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banivechi Posted September 25, 2005 Report Share Posted September 25, 2005 There are plenty of fake coins out there, many of them emanating from Bulgaria and Romania. Ian I live in Romania and in past years I attended 7-8 coin shows yearly in many towns. I saw counterfeited Istros Drachmes 2 or 3 times for sale at different dealers, but ALL of them mentioned that coins were fakes. Prices? Around 40-50 Euro. Genuine drachmes I saw only "to see but don't touch". These are by law registered as objects of national patrimonium, must be registered at museum, and it is illegal to sold out of country. If the owner decide to sell it, the state have the right to buy it with priority. I do not want to think, if Livius took out of Romania a genuine Istros drachma, how legal was his action. Right now, here is a big police action against a gang of treasure hunters (Italians and Romanians) who take out of Romania several Kosonos gold coins and Dacian massive gold items. Tens of people are arrested... But I was off topic... Being illegal to export antique coins, I have doubts that these are counterfeited in Romania, that will be double illegal: once to export like a genuine coins, and then counterfeiting historical items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted September 25, 2005 Report Share Posted September 25, 2005 I live in Romania and in past years I attended 7-8 coin shows yearly in many towns. I saw counterfeited Istros Drachmes 2 or 3 times for sale at different dealers, but ALL of them mentioned that coins were fakes. Prices? Around 40-50 Euro.Genuine drachmes I saw only "to see but don't touch". These are by law registered as objects of national patrimonium, must be registered at museum, and it is illegal to sold out of country. If the owner decide to sell it, the state have the right to buy it with priority. I do not want to think, if Livius took out of Romania a genuine Istros drachma, how legal was his action. Right now, here is a big police action against a gang of treasure hunters (Italians and Romanians) who take out of Romania several Kosonos gold coins and Dacian massive gold items. Tens of people are arrested... But I was off topic... Being illegal to export antique coins, I have doubts that these are counterfeited in Romania, that will be double illegal: once to export like a genuine coins, and then counterfeiting historical items. Ouch! 40 -50 euro is expensive for a fake / replica coin. It's bad enough paying that for a real one. Worse still if you buy it as genuine THEN find out that it's a fake! ;-) We have laws in the UK as well concerning `treasure trove' . Basically if its valuable, and looks as though it has been deliberately hidden, then the Crown has first charge over it. If it is indeed a national treasure the finder is given the full appraised value by the Crown. If the Crown has no use for it ( enough specimens exist already or the items are not worth any particular study), then the finder has the items returned to them to do with as they please. The law encourages you to turn in what you find if you are a `treasure hunter' (amateur or otherwise). Its a little bit more complex than i've outlined but thats the fundamental, and it works well for the UK. There is a good arguement for similar policies being adopted in other countries in order to stop national and cultural treasures from being illegally exported. The whole counterfeiting world (and smuggling) is shrowded in wheelings and dealings, all of which cross many borders, and none of the activities are particularly wholesome or savoury. I'd love to be wrong concerning Romania being a source of counterfeits. Perhaps I am. I don't have certainty on that, unlike Bulgaria. I have absolute certainty concerning Bulgaria being a major source of counterfeits. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livius Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 - I'm trying to find the meaning of the Greek legend [monogram] marked under the sea eagle clawing a dolphin. I e-mailed my both pictures showing each side of my silver Greek coin [Drachm] to an expert in ancient Greek coinage and also a coin collector and dealer [from USA where I live]. That person does NOT consider my old coin to be a "fake" like many of you guys wrote here. I hope he's able to help me with the meaning of that Greek legend [monogram]. --- NOTE: "Banivechi" this old ancient Greek coin I have and I found is one of the very few positive things I remember from Romania. Here where I live is a free country and nobody tells me what coin I have to own or to register just to control my life like in Romania. It's really sad that today you guys from Romania are still brain washed with the same "old ideas and propaganda" so commonly used before December 1989. Thanks for looking, Livius 09/27/05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banivechi Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 "Banivechi" this old ancient Greek coin I have and I found is one of the very few positive things I remember from Romania. Here where I live is a free country and nobody tells me what coin I have to own or to register just to control my life like in Romania. It's really sad that today you guys from Romania are still brain washed with the same "old ideas and propaganda" so commonly used before December 1989. Thanks for looking, Livius 09/27/05 In the US you cannot find ruins of Greek cities... But try to take out of Greece one ancient coin or amphora and you will go directly to jail. Thank you for your kind clasification of my brain. I live in Romania, I'm happy here, and the respect of the law I consider to be a prove of civilisation. And I consider that your brain is still full of old ideas about Romania. "Brain washing", "propaganda" is a "limbaj de lemn" (wooden language) who you can find only at a very small pecentage of Romanians, and, with full respect, I consider that you are one of them. Having a superior attitude in conversation is another one reminiscence of brain washed guys... The man who knows better... Maybe you can convince me then how it is possible to find one coin in the sands of Mamaia beach, at tens of kilometers away from Histria, at 10 km from Tomis ruins, in a place with the most fine granulozity of sand, on the one tongue of beach between sea and lakes, which 2000 years ago simply doesn't exist? Look at this map: http://www.plaja.ro/harta%20litoral.htm Here even the childs knows that because of Danube, the land increase slowly every year (in fact this was the reason of death of Istros town, the gulf was slowly filled with sand and the harbor becames impracticable) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted September 27, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 Let me warn you over something: the cost of making a counterfeit die is suprising horribly cheap these few days. That is an example of a "good" and hard to tell counterfeit die. With the aid of computers and excellent scanners, my god, almost any single details and angles can be captured. Even an 1999 American 1/10oz of platinum got counterfeited! The result of this coin to be really a genuine or a counterfeit? Maybe you should sent it over to an expert. Even pictures nowadays can tell lies unless you take it off from a microscope. And please, if you think you know everything, I don't think you need any help of us from here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 - I'm trying to find the meaning of the Greek legend [monogram] marked under the sea eagle clawing a dolphin. I e-mailed my both pictures showing each side of my silver Greek coin [Drachm] to an expert in ancient Greek coinage and also a coin collector and dealer [from USA where I live]. That person does NOT consider my old coin to be a "fake" like many of you guys wrote here. The `monogram' is most likely the the initials of a magister or a monayer at the time of the coin being struck. As to a `who'.....well, let's leave something for your expert from the US to tell you eh? PS: Monograms of local magisters can sometimes be found on coins of other city states during that period. Also on some of the coinage of Alexander III. PPS: No matter what anyone else says, your coin still looks `pasty' to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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