sigistenz Posted September 13, 2015 Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 I bought this eBay coin, my first slabbed coin, I do not pay for slabs but $350 looked like a fair price, slabbed or not. Watch the offer below. http://www.ebay.com/itm/141738611554?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2FEmpire-up-to-1917-%2F32477%2Fi.html%3F_sc%3D1%26_sop%3D10%26_sticky%3D1%26_catref%3D1%26_trkparms%3D65%25253A12%25257C66%25253A2%25257C39%25253A1%25257C72%25253A5846%26_from%3DR40%26_nkw%3D141738611554%26_rdc%3D1 In hand the slabbed coin still looked nice. No hairlines visible despite the description on the slab. I consulted youtube how to crack the slab and did so accordingly, gently, not harming the coin. Out came the coin below. The serious damage had been hidden by the slabbing. A ruined coin became XF - DETAILS - SURFACE HAIRLINES. There are no hairlines at all but the destruction instead. The coin is too scarce to have been confounded with another one lying next to it on the packing table. The slabbers were not in their early days - the seller had the coin slabbed earlier this year. The coin is the one they slabbed as can be verified by their ID# and picture. What to do? What can I do? Sigi http://imageshack.com/a/img673/7910/Tq726u.jpg . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted September 13, 2015 Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 Oh boy. Seller knew of the damage and did not disclose, counting on the buyer to not ever open! Contact seller and see what the reaction is. Let them know they did not get away with it, even if a dispute does not find in your favor. It is still a nice coin, however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAJ Posted September 13, 2015 Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 That is a shame. A nice coin. It is possible the seller bought it slabbed so did not know - but should still be responsible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARENUM Posted September 14, 2015 Report Share Posted September 14, 2015 I see several times auction houses in US refused the returns if slab was removed,it was different cases(coin autencity) and I belived Grading Company guaranty autencity. In your case seller have right to refused the returns becouse slab was broken.Most of the seller accept the returns if coin return in the same condition as received. You can open the case "item not as descrebed" ... and try to get refund (partial or full payment) I don't know if NGC can be responsible for edge damage not descrebed on the sticker. Looks like metal was not removed and avarage XF details condition.We always have risk find somthing unvisiable if we buy slabed coins. Rarenum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted September 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2015 The seller had offered this coin unslabbed on eBay earlier this year. As the damage showed clearly, the coin did not sell. The seller had then slab the coin. The slabbers graded it "XF details, hairlines" and squeezed it into a tight holder concealing the serious damage. I do not like what the seller did but I cannot blame him. He showed the actual pictures of the slabbed coin. He hides behind that. I got what I had seen. And I cannot return the item intact (slab cracked). But I do not understand how a grading company with some standing is capable to issue such faulty and deceptive slab. In some earlier thread someone wrote that you can maybe order the grade to be attributed? Jokingly, as I thought then. Sigi . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted September 15, 2015 Report Share Posted September 15, 2015 It's a real shame for NGC to drop the standards so low. Apart from that shaving on the edge, it's a nice coin though. I agree that the seller should have at least attracted the attention of buyer to the flows seeing but not noted by NCG on their label. Once removed from the slab, I doubt it can be returned for the full reimbursement, but partial you should be able to get. The seller can get it reinserted into the slab by NGC, done it once, can do it again, but the buyer may have to bare the costs (including postage) to NGC and back. That would seam fair in my view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARENUM Posted September 15, 2015 Report Share Posted September 15, 2015 Hi Sigi, I can recomend one way I would do : 1.Contact the seller or eBay and ask for return time extenthion,I belived you have about 30 days 2.Send coin to NGC for replace slab (not for grading),I belived to replace the plastic cost less. 3.Return graded coin back to the seller if eBay customer service or seller agree. About 3rd party grading possible the sticker is very small to descred all scratches,nidle dots and rim nicks... and it easy to described as XF details. NGC is big multimillions company and if you need to add any additional text on sticker you should pay additional. Rarenum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARENUM Posted September 15, 2015 Report Share Posted September 15, 2015 It's a real shame for NGC to drop the standards so low. Apart from that shaving on the edge, it's a nice coin though. I agree that the seller should have at least attracted the attention of buyer to the flows seeing but not noted by NCG on their label. Once removed from the slab, I doubt it can be returned for the full reimbursement, but partial you should be able to get. The seller can get it reinserted into the slab by NGC, done it once, can do it again, but the buyer may have to bare the costs (including postage) to NGC and back. That would seam fair in my view. extant4cell, eBay have regulation and after placing the bids or purchasing the items you are in agreement with ebay policy . The seller return policy clearly stated on the listings: "Seller does not offer returns. You are covered by the eBay Money Back Guarantee - opens in a new window or tab if you received an item that is not as described in the listing." I would prefered stay away buying from the seller without return policy and for returns contact eBay Money back Guarantee team. Rarenum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted September 15, 2015 Report Share Posted September 15, 2015 eBay.com policy is very complicated, but you can probably shorten it to: if it is easy and you can do it yourself we are happy to assist, if not - deal with it! LOL that's just perfect! It's a bit different on eBay.com.au ... The law in Australia supersedes the return policy of seller who says "no returns on this item" if you sell / buy in Australia and they request a refund for a returned item, it's illegal to refuse: http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/buy/contextual/return-policy.html ... Of cause if you buy outside Australia, in Israel for instance, as in Sigi's case, your "home" laws may not apply, and definitely do not apply, if you buy over eBay.com ... But if you buy via eBay.com.au you may still be eligible for return and seller's return policy may be overruled, if it contradicts your platform's rule governed by country's laws. As sellers make their item available to your platform (in this case eBay.com.au), they may need agree to play by it's rules... In case you would go to the extend of a dispute the chance of getting a return is 50%, you may win / may not. But the item should be in the original condition - in case with slabbed coins, it should be slabbed and not removed from a "protective casing"... It's a complected and sometimes a nerve racking experience that if you can - you stay out of. Best is to speak to the seller, and if you agree - go with it, if not, well, you get what you viewed on a picture, live with it and never buy from them again, unless you discuss the conditions ahead via e-mail messaging that can be viewed if it comes to a dispute... What I said in a previous post is more of a hopeful outcome for two sensible people (seller and buyer) to arrive to and what I thought it would be fair, if we lived in a world based on fairness instead of disproportionate justice governed by imperfect laws and rules. In case with the KM 5 kopecks, unless seller agrees to be fair (and I understand he doesn't) it would be fighting a lost battle I think... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted September 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2015 Well, thank you all for your consideration and advice. I really appreciate it. Maybe it would be best to forget and get friends with the coin rather than to empoison my days with a lenghthy procedure of uncertain outcome. I'll have to sleep over this. Thank you again, Sigi . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted September 15, 2015 Report Share Posted September 15, 2015 Whoever sent this coin to NGC knew that it will not get a number grade. So on one hand it is a pre-planned action to cover the damage. On the other hand the writing on the slab could have been related to some kind of damage instead of hairlines, which would defeat the purpose. Also, I guess there is a cost of slabbing to consider with the return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAJ Posted September 15, 2015 Report Share Posted September 15, 2015 Very disappointing Sigi - but you might have the right take on this. In the past, NGC would not have slabbed this one. Keep your posts coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted September 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 For the first time I did buy a slabbed coin - and only because the price was right - unslabbed ot not. Of course I'd crack the slab instantly to free the coin for my trays. I hate slabs and would never pay for any. In my opinion they are doing harm to my hobby, at least as I understand my hobby. Nice coins are diasppearing from the market, only to get way too expensive by slabbing, getting out of reach. I do not pay for anybody's opinion of grade. I like a coin or I don't. But of course, tastes are different, tastes change, I am an oldtimer. For me a slabbed coin is like a woman behind a window pane... Sigi . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 I agree with you Sigi. Slabbing is a business for those who like to see their women behind a glass. In spite it's edge flows I still like that coin, and it looks a lot better out of that silly slab. My congrats! They are not easily found in a reasonable grade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted September 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 Much depends from the angle of light, In my first picture (1st post) I showed the raw coin's shaved edge, which had been hidden by the slab. My 2nd picture (just above) is the presentation in my web site. Sigi . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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