Goetzdude Posted May 21, 2013 Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 I'm helping out a friend and I haven't got a clue on this one. Cast Bronze, 36.75mm, 13.30g.Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccg Posted May 21, 2013 Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 Can't help - but it's definitely quite neat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
constanius Posted May 21, 2013 Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 I can find no listing for it. The obverse shows the Virgin Mary & St. John by Christ on the cross with the Sun & Moon by his out stretched arms. The Latin translates as "Mother see your Son".. This was a common depiction of the crucifixion in medieval times. The reverse is more of a puzzle but the XPS stands for Christ and seems to say "Christ has made for us our bed" meaning Christ has prepared a place of rest for us in Heaven(by sacrificing himself on the cross) the instruments of the Passion are depicted, crown of thorns, chalice, torch, lantern, pillar of flagellation, cockerel, ladder, 30 pieces of silver etc. I would guess that it is circa 16/17th century, a fabulous find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bagerap Posted May 21, 2013 Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 The phrase is from: Mulier, ecce filius tuus … Ecce Mater tua (John, xix. 26, 27.)(Woman behold your son, and you behold your mother) and is mainly found on Spanish and Maltese religious artefacts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank Posted May 21, 2013 Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 Very interesting -- a mix of various iconographical types. I found a somewhat similar jeton on an Italian site La Moneta: http://www.lamoneta.it/topic/49016-moneta-non-identificata/ (later edit: I had to sign in with Google to be allowed access to the images!) The abbreviated text on the reverse is taken from an adaptation of Philippians 2.8: Christus factus est pro nobis obediens usque ad mortem, mortem autem crucis, "Christ was made [by God] for us, obedient even unto death, even death upon the cross." This phrase was an integral part of the medieval mass. Feuardent lists a jeton with a very similar reverse as #4012 (listed under "Eglises de Paris" under a subheading "Jetons with mottoes and figures of the gros tournois or denier tournois, St Louis type") (The obverse has designs like a gros tournois). He states that he's really not at all sure that this subheading group really belongs under "Eglises de Paris," that some may have been produced outside of France, and that they may have been produced as amulets for fishermen, who were known to prefer medalets of this type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank Posted May 21, 2013 Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 A reply on the Italian site says that jeton is 16th century Venetian: E' una tessera-medaglia del XVI sec. della Scuola della Passione di Venezia. Ne esistono molti tipi con varianti nella legenda e con diversi diametri. Molte sono state pubblicate da Voltolina 1998-99 (vado a memoria perchè sono in vacanza, non ti posso citare la bibliografia esatta) Al D/ Cristo in Croce tra Maria e Giovanni, ai lati del cartiglio con INRI, il sole e la luna. ECCE M(ater) T(ua) ECCE FIL T Al R/ Cristo morto in pietà tra i simboli della passione. XPS FACT EST PRO NOB OBED VSQ A M In qualche esemplare al posto della M finale (Mortem) c'è un teschietto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank Posted May 21, 2013 Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 Rouyer's # 1793 (p. 275 at http://archive.org/stream/cataloguedelaco00antigoog#page/n304/mode/2up ) is very close. I can't find an image of it anywhere. Copper, 31 mm, with slightly different abbreviations of mottoes. It's listed under "pièces diverses," i.e. he doesn't know where to categorize it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
constanius Posted May 21, 2013 Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 Great sleuthing Frank. Most of the French ones use IHS not XPS, so perhaps the Venetian connection is correct. Nice, when an uncommon piece surfaces and gives us something to research. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goetzdude Posted May 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2013 Constanius, That's why I came to you guys because I'm ignorant about anything outside of Goetz and Gies. Admittedly, I put this piece up on another forum and was told that this is a cast copy of the original struck pieces, so, being a copy, it's not worth much. I normally don't talk about value as that shouldn't be our focus but my friend is a coin collector...need I say more? Anyway, although he didn't come right out and ask it, I know he would like to know if it is worth anything...if anyone wants to take a stab at it that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goetzdude Posted May 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2013 A reply on the Italian site says that jeton is 16th century Venetian: E' una tessera-medaglia del XVI sec. della Scuola della Passione di Venezia. Ne esistono molti tipi con varianti nella legenda e con diversi diametri. Molte sono state pubblicate da Voltolina 1998-99 (vado a memoria perchè sono in vacanza, non ti posso citare la bibliografia esatta) Al D/ Cristo in Croce tra Maria e Giovanni, ai lati del cartiglio con INRI, il sole e la luna. ECCE M(ater) T(ua) ECCE FIL T Al R/ Cristo morto in pietà tra i simboli della passione. XPS FACT EST PRO NOB OBED VSQ A M In qualche esemplare al posto della M finale (Mortem) c'è un teschietto. "In qualche esemplare al posto della M finale (Mortem) c'è un teschietto." In some specimens instead of the final M (Mortem) there is a small skull. In this example the skull is at 1200 on the reverse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
constanius Posted May 22, 2013 Report Share Posted May 22, 2013 Admittedly, I put this piece up on another forum and was told that this is a cast copy of the original struck pieces, so, being a copy, it's not worth much. Are you sure that it is cast? The copper in use normally had lots of impurities and having hundreds of years wear and chemical reaction if exposed to harsh conditions can give an appearance of being cast. Having the piece in hand is a help but even then it can be hard to tell. Mind if the other forum know of cast copies then they are probably right, if not don't write it off too soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goetzdude Posted May 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2013 I'll need to do a closer analysis...it sure looks cast but then again I don't deal with 500 year old material on even a yearly basis. I'll pull out the 10X stereoscope in the next day or two and take a look. It's possible this is brown copper too. What kind of throws me off is its glossy surface, not lacquered but certainly glossy. I'll also try to get some much closer HR images of different aspects of the piece to see what you guys think. Thanks again!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goetzdude Posted May 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2013 Okay, Here are some links to much larger images. It still looks cast to me but give me your opinions. It certainly needs an acetone and olive oil bath either way. http://www.crestviewcable.com/~archy2/DSCN1298.jpg http://www.crestviewcable.com/~archy2/DSCN1299.jpg http://www.crestviewcable.com/~archy2/DSCN1300.jpg http://www.crestviewcable.com/~archy2/DSCN1301.jpg Thanks again for your assists Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
constanius Posted May 26, 2013 Report Share Posted May 26, 2013 To me it still looks genuine. I think that it probably was in the soil at sometime, hence its rather sorry state. It obviously has been cleaned in the past. Ancient silver coins, Russian coins, American silver coins fakes are plentiful, this type of exonumia fakes are almost unheard of, their worth compared to the coins I mentioned is minimal. As I previously stated if the other forum knows of fakes of this piece then that would change things. The Russian forum on this site has loads of fakes, the Web has pages of known ancient silver fakes etc but the poor man's jetons and tokens are almost always the real thing. Just not worth someone's effort to fake them. Contemporary to the jetons some copies might have been made if so they would probably be worth as much today as the real ones. I would certainly buy it or sell it as genuine. Perhaps you should let someone who deals with these have a look at it to be sure. Pat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goetzdude Posted May 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2013 Anyone know who might deal in these? Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 7, 2013 Report Share Posted June 7, 2013 E' una tessera-medaglia... I'm not sure what a "card-medal" is. Maybe a religious medal (like a modern-day St. Christopher medal) given or sold to the pious? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted June 7, 2013 Report Share Posted June 7, 2013 It looks genuine to me, corroded from being buried, not cast. But, as mentioned, need to see it in hand to be certain. I would not write it off. Pegasi handles a wide array of medieval pieces. They might know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goetzdude Posted June 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 The guy that sent this piece and a Goetz piece to me for attribution evidently didn't like what I had to tell him. His Goetz restrike, at best, was worth $100 (Flip had $475 on it), and this medal $50 (Flip had $275 on it). He said just send the material back to him. He stiffed me...I paid postage to return it to him safely and he never paid me back. Thanks to him, no one will get further assistance like this. Thanks anyway guys!!! At least I learned something and I guess that's all that matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsraghead Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 Its a shame when people ask for assistance and then disrespect you afterward. Dont let one person ruin your good nature goetzdude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
constanius Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 At least I learned something and I guess that's all that matters. Thanks for posting it, we learned plenty too. Sorry about the way you were treated Scott but most of us have been there at sometime! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsraghead Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 I think all of us have Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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