Goetzdude

Gee, only thirteen years since this thread began? 😉 Well, collecting Goetz rarities can take some time. I just picked this Goetz birth medal up from a German auction. A companion piece with Bertrand's sister's birth medal of 1910 and the original topic of this thread. K- 64 BERTRAND VAN WEIN BIRTH MEDAL 1912 Cast Bronze, Commemorative Medal, 50.0mm, 48.4g., Rim-punched; K•GœTz Obverse: BERTRAND • VAN • WIEN • GEBOREN • AM 5 • JULI / 1912 (Bertrand van Wien, born July 5th, 1912). Reverse: ALLEN • DREIEN • GLÜCKLICH • GEDEIHEN (To all three happy prosperity). The letters S, J and B on the reverse are the initials of the first names of the van Wien children. Goetz was commissioned by the Dutch Van Wien family to commemorate their son's birth on July 12, 1912.

https://secessionistmedals.com/

Ludwig Gies 'Mortar in Firing Position' 1914, Cast Bronze Uniface Medal, 62.5mm, 90.0g., Ernsting WVZ 56, Eight known (six museum, two, private collections) Three heavy guns, camouflaged on hills by bulwarks, miniature soldiers pull carts with cannon balls piled high on them while an officer sights in the target behind the guns. A rare early war piece where Gies shows weapons of war. He soon becomes a pacifist using strictly Medieval allegory to convey the futility of the war.

I haven't a clue as to his political bent. There isn't much written about him. He was a Munich Schooler along with Gies, Zadikow, and others. All Germans were taken aback when the war didn't 'end by Christmas' in 1914. Reports of the amount of death and destruction painted the situation as grim. Here is a short read on the general overview of the artists and their work from the German WWI experience. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/art/art-reviews/10839673/Cast-iron-insights-into-war-as-the-enemy-saw-it.html

Here's the other May piece I got in the same auction. The Last Shot Cast Bronze/Uniface, 84mm X 156mm,196.28g RRRR There is absolutely nothing written about this medallion. Not even any mention from German museums whom I believe I was bidding against as the prices for these two medals was 3X any of the other May WWI material. The size of this cannon may be alluding to the use of "Big Bertha" which was designed by Krup.

Yes, I have posted Ludwig Gies medals from the same time period before. I've never seen Karl May's works offered before and was able to pick up the two rarest pieces a month or so ago out of Germany. I could share the other May piece if you are interested. My Ludwig Gies WWI collection now numbers 33 pieces which is probably double what I had back when I was posting. I can show everyone the new stuff if there is interest too. All of this material is as rare as hens teeth and you'd usually need to visit a museum in Germany to even see any of them.

Karl May After the Battle (1915) Nach der Schlacht Cast Bronze, Uniface Medal, 68mm, 76.80g. RRR Exhausted, Death sits in contemplation upon a devastating, modern weapon of war. A quintessential Karl May WWI piece exhibiting 'death' as the main feature of the war. German so die Legende, sitz der Tod auf einem Geschütz. Der Tod, und zwar der Tod durch die moderne Waffentechnik, das ist dabei die Idee und das Bild, das mit Kampf und Schlacht verbunden wird. Jede chauvinistische Heldentod-Verklärung liegt dem Medailleur hier fern. Karl May hat eine ganze Reihe solcher Medaillen geschaffen, die den Gedanken des Todes als dem Hauptmerkmal des Krieges eindrucksvoll ins Bild setzen. Das motiv des Todes auf der Kanone ist vielleicht von einer ikonographisch allerdings abweichenden Darstellung dieses Sujets auf einer bereits vor dem Krieg geschaffenen Medaille von Ludwig Gies inspiriert worden.

Karl Goetz K-132 THE RUSSIAN AMBASSADOR RECEIVES THE SERBIAN ASSASSINS (Serajewo, Der Funke des Weltbrandes) 1914 Cast Bronze, 58.0mm, Wt. 54.60g, Frankenhuis 1412 Obverse: The murderers of the Austrian Throne Inheritor Ferdinand are paid off by the Russian Ambassador. The inscription reads, “ The Russian Reverse: A Serbian nationalist, concealing a bomb, sneaks across the Austrian border. This is Goetz’s first medal that concerned the most significant event starting the First World War: The assassination of Archduke Ferdinand in Serajevo on June 28, 1914. The boundary post marked “Serajewo” indicates the turning point in the history of nations. ------------------ My image of this medal is currently used with a Dr.K.A. Rodgers article in the June issue of The Australasian Coin & Banknote Magazine The Reverse can be found on the cover. I will be contributing Goetz, Gies, Eberbach, and some French and Belgium images to a suite of many articles covering the events of WWI in this magazine through 2018

KarlGoetz.com has reprinted Kienast's two reference books and you can find them at the following link. This set is selling for 1/10 of the going price for the hard to find original hard copies but contain the same content. You can find them here: http://www.karlgoetzmedals.com/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductId=410

yup, based on the difference in the rims, this Lincoln is a restrike. Thanks, never had great hopes for it but thought I'd ask.

Hi, I have this Lincoln medal I don't know squat about. And I also have a token with flip info. I wrote to Levine but he never responded. Any help including values would be sweet if you can find the time. Thanks.

The guy that sent this piece and a Goetz piece to me for attribution evidently didn't like what I had to tell him. His Goetz restrike, at best, was worth $100 (Flip had $475 on it), and this medal $50 (Flip had $275 on it). He said just send the material back to him. He stiffed me...I paid postage to return it to him safely and he never paid me back. Thanks to him, no one will get further assistance like this. Thanks anyway guys!!! At least I learned something and I guess that's all that matters.

Anyone know who might deal in these? Scott

Okay, Here are some links to much larger images. It still looks cast to me but give me your opinions. It certainly needs an acetone and olive oil bath either way. http://www.crestviewcable.com/~archy2/DSCN1298.jpg http://www.crestviewcable.com/~archy2/DSCN1299.jpg http://www.crestviewcable.com/~archy2/DSCN1300.jpg http://www.crestviewcable.com/~archy2/DSCN1301.jpg Thanks again for your assists

I'll need to do a closer analysis...it sure looks cast but then again I don't deal with 500 year old material on even a yearly basis. I'll pull out the 10X stereoscope in the next day or two and take a look. It's possible this is brown copper too. What kind of throws me off is its glossy surface, not lacquered but certainly glossy. I'll also try to get some much closer HR images of different aspects of the piece to see what you guys think. Thanks again!!

"In qualche esemplare al posto della M finale (Mortem) c'è un teschietto." In some specimens instead of the final M (Mortem) there is a small skull. In this example the skull is at 1200 on the reverse

Constanius, That's why I came to you guys because I'm ignorant about anything outside of Goetz and Gies. Admittedly, I put this piece up on another forum and was told that this is a cast copy of the original struck pieces, so, being a copy, it's not worth much. I normally don't talk about value as that shouldn't be our focus but my friend is a coin collector...need I say more? Anyway, although he didn't come right out and ask it, I know he would like to know if it is worth anything...if anyone wants to take a stab at it that is.

I'm helping out a friend and I haven't got a clue on this one. Cast Bronze, 36.75mm, 13.30g. Thanks in advance.

Well we know you won't be sending it back to Heritage, "Sold AS IS, NO RETURNS" Should have been a huge red flag. Unless the dealer is well versed in Goetz they won't be able to tell you much except that it's either a die or hub...the question more import is WHO made the die/hub...I see lots of question marks among the lots. Good Luck..

It's doubtful anyone would use these to strike new medals as the rust corrosion on them is from minor to extensive. Even reworked they would provide diagnostics for easy identification. Additionally, I and another strong collector have had a pulse on 'restrikes' already in the market, and not surprisingly their strong appearance in the last two years from Germany. If anyone, including the Chinese, wanted to make any of these medals they could easily take a nice original cast example and reduce it down to working 36mm hubs and dies. I'm not too concerned about this as much as some. My concern lies in the gaping provenance holes that have existed since Karl's 1950 death. PS; Heritage is wrong about these 'recently ' bought from the family. My Goetz family contact (which is one more than Heritage or the consignor have) wasn't even aware that these had come up for auction. That leaves me wondering where they really did come from.

Hi Bill, and to everyone else too!! Sorry for the delay in a response but I've been hammered trying to get Medal Forum up over the past two weeks. Since my forum is now up and there is a little activity regarding this auction I thought I'd just pass off the link to the appropriate page so that you can read the current discussion. You can access the thread here: http://secessionistmedals.com/index.php?topic=2.0 'Secessionist Medals are better known as Munich Schooler and Dance of Death type medals. The site will discuss far more than that but it was created as an 'exonumia-centric' site as opposed to a 'numismatic' site. Feel free to join.

Thanks Constanius, yes, it could be a train too. Either of our examples help us get to the point of how Gies handled the topic of war in his art. I have another medal that exhibits a more telling analogy...two fish sitting in the ocean, face to face and spitting water at one another with medieval piked warriors on the back of each. More obvious than this one.

yup, plus one officer...had to be pretty ugly inside, eh?

Gies was a pacifist and he used archaic allegory to represent war events and weapons. I believe that Gies is using his horse-drawn cart packed with medieval warriors with pikes as an allegory to the first use of the German A7V tank. If I am correct then this undated medal may have been made later than 1914/15 as Ernsting has placed it and rather closer to 1918 with the first deployment of the German tank. It is also possible that he may have been thinking of the British tanks first deployed in 1916. The British tank, however, did not require a 16/17 man crew to run it like the A7V I just realized that I had posted this medal here previously when I first acquired it...sorry about that. We are, however, discussing the subject matter further this time around.

Ludwig Gies, 1914, Cast Bronze, broad oval, uniface 74.5mm, 65.7g., Edge-punch: C.Poellath Schrobenhausen. Ernsting WVZ64.RRRR Six Examples exist, three in museums at Brussels, London, and Paris and three examples in private collections (including this example).