alexbq2 Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 Got this on eBay. Not sure what to think of it. Heavily scratched up. Odd texture, corrosion? Also odd bumps on the reverse near some letters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 I do not think that strange texture is corrosion... But, let us see what others say. Meanwhile, I would email the seller that you doubt the authenticity of this item. Also, can you photograph the edge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 I also saw it on Ebay. Looks Novodelish, but did not look convincing enough to me to reach for catalogs.and compare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Lettering, at least, looks close to others sold at auction http://www.mcsearch.info/search.html?search=1654+novodel#0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 I had one long time ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted December 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 I compared to known Novodels, and I am convinced that it is identical to one of the known dies.. My feeling, and it might be just paranoia, is that the damage is there to hide signs of casting. The edge looks almost sharpened. The field texture is porous, and none of the Novodels that I have seen have those metal bumps near H, I, and N. I would like this to be a Novodel, and it could be one struck with rusty busted up dies. Or a cast. What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 I think you nailed it -- obvious cast copy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Agreed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted December 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Thank you all for confirming my suspicions. I think that edge indentation under the horse is the former location of the sprue. I'm going to try to return this thing. I'm not happy! This is the 4th item I'm returning this month! I have never had such an abysmally bad run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 I have been saying for some time now that certain types sold today are 70-90% fake. Those of you that frequent russian forums, know this very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Yes, but cost is a big consideration. One thing is to get a fake at full price and another one is to get it at low price. Chances are consideribly higher to get a fake when getting something at low price on Ebay. Yes, miracles do happen, but not often enough. And as long as you were able to return all 4 items, you are still ahead (with more experience). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted December 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Yes, but cost is a big consideration. One thing is to get a fake at full price and another one is to get it at low price. Chances are consideribly higher to get a fake when getting something at low price on Ebay. Yes, miracles do happen, but not often enough. And as long as you were able to return all 4 items, you are still ahead (with more experience). If I were to get a fake I would rather get it cheap! But I would much rather get the real deal cheap!!!!! Seems that I can return this one, so I guess I'm ahead by experience if not by a nice coin... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Yes, but cost is a big consideration. One thing is to get a fake at full price and another one is to get it at low price. Chances are consideribly higher to get a fake when getting something at low price on Ebay. Yes, miracles do happen, but not often enough. And as long as you were able to return all 4 items, you are still ahead (with more experience). I could make a good argument using the sale of a $300 fake for $17,000 + commission at auction last year, but I would probably get another letter from the auction proprietor... The only good thing about ebay: 1) Normally fakes are obvious, like this "Novodel" -- just ask for better photos; 2) The coins carry smaller price tag in comparison to auctions. However, the fakes that scare me are the ones that we cannot recognize so easily. It appears that high level forgeries have been sold by auction houses in US (and, at this point, I will say ALL auction houses) and abroad. Good examples are 1704 rubles, 1741 rubles of Ioan, Yefimoks, fake copper patterns and novodels, 1728 rubles, all sorts of commemorative coins, coins with plain edge, overstrikes (1796 em, 1791em, all 5 kop and 2 kop am's). You got a factory in Rostov producing high quality fakes. You got an outfit in Moscow that sells 1704, 1741 rubles for $150 -- 300 a pop, which were actually sold for huge amounts of $ at auction here and in europe. You got a ukrainian outfit that turns out copper pattern and novodel fakes. These things (good fakes) have been made since as early as 1980's. A fake 1712 ruble traces back to a 1991 SwissBank sale. By the way, it was graded by NGC, and later sold at 3 successive auctions culminating in a $18,000 price tag... Sometimes it feels that it is a miracle to buy an original, no matter what you are paying for it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted December 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 I wonder if things are any better in major Russian auctions? They certainty house very knowledgeable experts who specialize in Russian coins. I'm surprised they don't organize a slabbing service at MiM. I think that the State Historic Museum, that does perform authentication for coin collectors, is so swamped that they are charging over $100 per coin. And all you get is a paper, that is not backed up by any financial responsibility on the part of the issuer, but can be annulled at will by the said issuer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 BKB, I still do not think that $100 fakes are the dangerous ones. And that 1654 Novodel I used to own (post 5) - paid $500 for it 15 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 What do I know?.. I would not be able to tell the difference before, if a taler was used as a planchette for 1704. And, that 1741 is also very nice. The PR of these items show that i am not alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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