bobh Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 I just returned home from the Hess-Divo auction 3 from this afternoon which had some Russian coins for sale towards the very end of the auction. Not a whole lot of coins, though, and none of the lots were such rarities or "drop dead gorgeous" enough to attract a lot of customers, I'm afraid to say. The auction room was fairly small, and it was seldom as much as half full. Live bidding over the internet was enabled, but there were only a few bidders whose numbers kept appearing again and again, mostly from the USA, but also some Polish, Russian and German bidding was going on. Many of the lots were won by write-in bids, apparently. So I stuck it out from about 2:30 pm all the way through the French, Italian and British lots before winding up in Russia at approx. 5:15 pm. There was one 15 minute break for coffee, which I'm sure the auctioneer needed more than anyone else. I had gone there primarily for this one coin, which I won for a very reasonable price: http://www.sixbid.co...viewlot&sid=597 Since people who have studied my own coins know that I already own two 7-1/2 rouble gold coins, it might be asked: "Why another one?" This one is the wide-rim variety which, AFAIK, has only been documented in the Kazakov catalog which is surely hard to get these days, having had only 1,000 copies printed and not yet reprinted -- anyway, I didn't have one yet, but wanted to have this variety. Along the way, I picked these up very unexpectedly for less than the estimate since I was the only bidder on one of them, and there was one other bidder interested in the second one, but he stopped after we reached CHF 100: http://www.sixbid.co...viewlot&sid=597 (sold in the March 2010 Künker auction for EUR 260.-, bought by me for CHF 100 ) http://www.sixbid.co...viewlot&sid=597 (sold in the Sept.-Oct. 2010 Künker auction for EUR 180.-, bought by me for CHF 100 ) After all, these are nice uncirculated coins ... anything this old which is still uncirculated must be worth that much, don't you think? And I really don't have much sympathy for someone who turns the coins over that fast ... they held it for just 2 years! But after the hammer fell on the 7-1/2 rouble, and it was mine, I was totally NOT expecting to win this one for less than $1,000: http://www.sixbid.co...viewlot&sid=597 I guess I'll have to sell some stock that had turned a profit recently in order to pay for it, but I think I got a good deal on this one. Its 1909 "cousin" brought even more moolah, but 1910 is much rarer! 1909 was the date which was presumably restruck by the Soviets in 1926 or so, according to Bitkin, as well as 1911 ten rouble coins. Severin remarks that at the time he wrote his gold and platinum book, the 1909 five rouble coins were "presently flooding the market." I regularly see at least 20 times more 1909 gold 5 R. for sale than 1910, and 1911 is even scarcer IMHO (the 5 rouble, NOT the 10 rouble coin.) There were some Nicholas I platinum coins that brought a bit over CHF 1,000 each, but they were so beat up -- F/VF at best -- that they didn't have much resale potential, IMHO (and don't forget that platinum is cheaper than gold these days, too!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 Congratulations Bobh! Looks like you had a good trip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted May 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 Congratulations Bobh! Looks like you had a good trip. Thanks! (although it was a very SHORT trip, since I live in Zurich!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 Oops, thought you were in Germany Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 Bobh, is the relatsioship known between Hess-Divo and Chaponniere? I do know him. He used to work for Alain Baron and then went on his own. Is he now part of Hess-Divo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted May 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Bobh, is the relatsioship known between Hess-Divo and Chaponniere? I do know him. He used to work for Alain Baron and then went on his own. Is he now part of Hess-Divo? I don't know myself exactly what relationship there is. But this is at least the second time that they have mentioned Chaponniere in their auctions. I can ask them in a day or two when I pick up my coins at their office. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted May 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 I went there today and asked about Mr. Chaponnière. They are not partners with Hess-Divo, but co-operate on auctions together. Other than that, they are two separate businesses. Of course, the relationship to F.R. Künker is even more interesting ... his son is CEO now of Hess-Divo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve D'Ippolito Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 There were some Nicholas I platinum coins that brought a bit over CHF 1,000 each, but they were so beat up -- F/VF at best -- that they didn't have much resale potential, IMHO (and don't forget that platinum is cheaper than gold these days, too!) So it is possible that mine isn't the ugliest one in existence! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted May 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 So it is possible that mine isn't the ugliest one in existence! I haven't had a chance to see yours, Steve ... but these things are so rare, it's probably nice to own one in ANY condition (as long as it's genuine, that is). Once in a while, they do show up at auctions in AU or UNC ... possibly even proofs of these exist. I saw one (probably about MS-63) several years ago at a UBS auction, and it was quite a beauty to behold! As to the coins in the present auction, they were all 3 roubles, probably the most common dates (I didn't check). Those CAN be found in decent condition, but they regularly bring more than what these sold for. There was a gold error coin -- I think Catherine II period -- that made for some interesting bidding action. I think it went for CHF 11,000 or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted May 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 http://www.sixbid.co...viewlot&sid=597 (sold in the March 2010 Künker auction for EUR 260.-, bought by me for CHF 100 ) Looks like I lucked out on this one ... this is BITKIN 131 ( R ) (St. George with cape). R. W. Julian lists the other variety (St. George without cape) as scarce, but this one as common, interestingly enough. H. M. Severin agrees with Bitkin. Maybe this was a typo in the Julian catalog? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 I had gone there primarily for this one coin, which I won for a very reasonable price: http://www.sixbid.co...viewlot&sid=597 Since people who have studied my own coins know that I already own two 7-1/2 rouble gold coins, it might be asked: "Why another one?" This one is the wide-rim variety which, AFAIK, has only been documented in the Kazakov catalog which is surely hard to get these days, having had only 1,000 copies printed and not yet reprinted -- anyway, I didn't have one yet, but wanted to have this variety. Hi Bob, it's a pleasure reading your lively post - it's like sitting there myself. Waiting and waiting - then unexpectedly buying something along the road. Sometimes to a later regret. But your patience paid - congratulations!! As to the coin above, the 2012 WOLMAR catalog also lists the two rim variants as follows:- Узкий кант------- VF $700 / XF $850 Широкий кант----VF $770 / XF $970 Sigi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted May 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Hi Bob, it's a pleasure reading your lively post - it's like sitting there myself. Waiting and waiting - then unexpectedly buying something along the road. Sometimes to a later regret. But your patience paid - congratulations!! As to the coin above, the 2012 WOLMAR catalog also lists the two rim variants as follows:- Узкий кант------- VF $700 / XF $850 Широкий кант----VF $770 / XF $970 Sigi Thanks, Sigi! Too bad that there was practically no Russian copper to speak of ... (otherwise, maybe you would have gotten on your bike and pedalled all the way to Zurich, then we could have finally met in person)? And thanks for the Wolmar reference. I believe that the wide rim variety is much rarer than the prices would indicate. Not extremely so, but I do see many more narrow rim 7-1/2 r. coins offered than wide rim ... maybe 5 to 1 or something like that? I am just estimating ... would have to do a systematic study of different auction venues such as I did on the 1913 Tercentenary rouble for the JRNS if I wanted to make a serious comparison. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 I went there today and asked about Mr. Chaponnière. They are not partners with Hess-Divo, but co-operate on auctions together. Other than that, they are two separate businesses. Of course, the relationship to F.R. Künker is even more interesting ... his son is CEO now of Hess-Divo. Thank you, Bob. Yes, Hess-Divo has multination ownership, including Japan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candidate Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 Looks like I lucked out on this one ... this is BITKIN 131 ( R ) (St. George with cape). R. W. Julian lists the other variety (St. George without cape) as scarce, but this one as common, interestingly enough. H. M. Severin agrees with Bitkin. Maybe this was a typo in the Julian catalog? I think it was a mistake of Severin... which was "copy-pasted" by Bitkin...Actually, the one without cape (Bitkin # 132) is scarcer than the one with cape in relation of approx. 1:5 to 1:6 (my statistics). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterShell Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 I think it was a mistake of Severin... which was "copy-pasted" by Bitkin... Actually, the one without cape (Bitkin # 132) is scarcer than the one with cape in relation of approx. 1:5 to 1:6 (my statistics). You are absolutely right. With cape is popular and without I would say that statistics go even deeper 1:12 or more ..I remember moment when I was trying to find one and how many "popular" versions I had in my hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted May 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 Thanks for the clarification ... this is exactly why I love to hang out here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candidate Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 without This is mine... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterShell Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 Nice one..and good picture..Will try to make mine later this day :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterShell Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 here it is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted May 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 Very nice! (for both of you) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted May 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 I think it was a mistake of Severin... which was "copy-pasted" by Bitkin... Actually, the one without cape (Bitkin # 132) is scarcer than the one with cape in relation of approx. 1:5 to 1:6 (my statistics). You are absolutely right. With cape is popular and without I would say that statistics go even deeper 1:12 or more ..I remember moment when I was trying to find one and how many "popular" versions I had in my hands. Interesting that the site at Monetnyi Dvor ( http://www.m-dv.ru/catalog/id,1006/type.html ) lists 7 or 8 pages of Bitkin 131 (with cape), whereas there are only 2 pages of Bitkin 132 (without cape). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candidate Posted May 26, 2012 Report Share Posted May 26, 2012 ... whereas there are only 2 pages of Bitkin 132 (without cape). ... and out of 22 coins on these 2 pages 4 are listed by mistake (2 are actually with cape, and 2 are poltinas)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve D'Ippolito Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 There were some Nicholas I platinum coins that brought a bit over CHF 1,000 each, but they were so beat up -- F/VF at best -- that they didn't have much resale potential, IMHO (and don't forget that platinum is cheaper than gold these days, too!) So it is possible that mine isn't the ugliest one in existence! I haven't had a chance to see yours, Steve ... but these things are so rare, it's probably nice to own one in ANY condition (as long as it's genuine, that is). Once in a while, they do show up at auctions in AU or UNC ... possibly even proofs of these exist. I saw one (probably about MS-63) several years ago at a UBS auction, and it was quite a beauty to behold! As to the coins in the present auction, they were all 3 roubles, probably the most common dates (I didn't check). Those CAN be found in decent condition, but they regularly bring more than what these sold for. There was a gold error coin -- I think Catherine II period -- that made for some interesting bidding action. I think it went for CHF 11,000 or so. Actually I used to own an Unc (but with rim dings) 3 ruble, and a 6 and 12 in XF. (And if I were to tell you what I paid for them not much more than ten years ago you'd probably cry.) I hung on to my ugly one for sentimental reasons when I blew most of the collection out the door in the WWC auction of late '08. I have to say these are the coins I "miss" the most though. As for my remnant ugly piece, I entered it in PCI 2011 and it made it past all of the other entries in "other metals" but ultimately choked against pieces in silver and gold. Since I did enter it in PCI it's one of the few coins I have in Omnicoin: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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