Once in a lifetime...

[bobh]

109 were struck. According to Bitkin, it is "said" that 100 of these were buried beneath the foundation cornerstone of a church (which leaves merely 9 specimens for the rest of us):

 

1907 gold 5 roubles in Künker auction 181 on Jan. 27, 2011

 

Has anyone else ever seen one in an auction, or auction catalog? Any bets on how high it will go? (the estimate of 12500 € is much too low, IMHO...)

[BKB]

Soderman had one which was sold in 1977. However, it was proof. I thought they were all supposed to be Proofs... This one is not proof, which causes me to doubt it.

[BKB]

Fuchs had one -- sold in 1996. Also proof. There was a a sale in russia -- proof. And there was a sale on Gorny #149 -- proof.

[one-kuna]

Kl. Kratzer not in a good place

[bobh]

Fuchs had one -- sold in 1996. Also proof. There was a a sale in russia -- proof. And there was a sale on Gorny #149 -- proof.

I wonder if the coin offered by Künker was a mishandled or circulated proof? Hard to tell from the pictures. But it makes sense to me that with such a small number of coins struck, if some of them are proofs, then they should all probably be proofs.

 

Does anyone know under WHICH church those coins were buried?

[Candidate]

Has anyone else ever seen one in an auction, or auction catalog?

http://m-dv.ru/catalog/id,374/all-prohod.html

[BKB]

I wonder if the coin offered by Künker was a mishandled or circulated proof? Hard to tell from the pictures. But it makes sense to me that with such a small number of coins struck, if some of them are proofs, then they should all probably be proofs.

 

 

The coin has no traces of ever being a proof. There are certain qualities that allow to see that the coin is a proof coin, even when the photos do not show polished fields. The process of production was different. They were minted on a medalic press with 2 or more repetitive "strikes." Actually, do not know what to call the application of pressure on a medalic press, but it is not striking... There is no evidence of double strike. That would be evident near the edge of the fields. Also, Nicholas gold in proof, as I am sure you know, exhibits frosted design over a polished field. The design here is perfectly regular. This looks like a business strike. After all, the amount of circulation it would take to turn a proof coin into a circulation coin is not showing here... People at Kunker can distinguish proof from business strike and would call it a proof, for that brings a lot more $...

 

Thus, unless the church story is bogus, this coin can only be a fake or a Soviet novodel...

[one-kuna]

I wonder if the coin offered by Künker was a mishandled or circulated proof? Hard to tell from the pictures. But it makes sense to me that with such a small number of coins struck, if some of them are proofs, then they should all probably be proofs.

 

Does anyone know under WHICH church those coins were buried?

 

Saint Dutchess Olga church in a Large Krasnosel'skiy military campus near St.Petersburg. A date of church foundation August 6 1907 was dedicated to the 100th anniversary buttle with Napoleon at Fridland where Life-Guard Horse Regiment had large losses. At the ceremony were Nikolas II and His wife Alexandra Fedorovna and eleven years old Grand Dutchess Olga Nikolaevna to whom in her birth memory the church was built. In Soviet time this church was destroyed by russians. This is a description from MiM auction. Also, it had a certificat issued by Shiryakov of GIM. Kunker coin does not look proof to me too.

[bobh]

Saint Dutchess Olga church in a Large Krasnosel'skiy military campus near St.Petersburg. A date of church foundation August 6 1907 was dedicated to the 100th anniversary buttle with Napoleon at Fridland where Life-Guard Horse Regiment had large losses. At the ceremony were Nikolas II and His wife Alexandra Fedorovna and eleven years old Grand Dutchess Olga Nikolaevna to whom in her birth memory the church was built. In Soviet time this church was destroyed by russians. This is a description from MiM auction. Also, it had a certificat issued by Shiryakov of GIM. Kunker coin does not look proof to me too.

Thanks, one-kuna! So the coins were possibly dug up then after the church was destroyed? Or did they use the building for other purposes, as they so often did with churches in the Soviet era?

[one-kuna]

Thanks, one-kuna! So the coins were possibly dug up then after the church was destroyed? Or did they use the building for other purposes, as they so often did with churches in the Soviet era?

 

Mintage 109 pcs.from which 100 were assinged for the church laying foundation and it was done at the present of Royal Family and others. At the present time former military campus are taken over by two military units - Military Provisioning/Fire Range and Medical Academies, - reference from same auction MiM 39 lot 430 sold $80.000

[bobh]

Mintage 109 pcs.from which 100 were assinged for the church laying foundation and it was done at the present of Royal Family and others. At the present time former military campus are taken over by two military units - Military Provisioning/Fire Range and Medical Academies, - reference from same auction MiM 39 lot 430 sold $80.000

So the church was "destroyed by Russians" during the Soviet time, but the building still stands -- maybe used to store ammunition and/or weapons? Anyone know anything more?

[alexbq2]

So the church was "destroyed by Russians" during the Soviet time, but the building still stands -- maybe used to store ammunition and/or weapons? Anyone know anything more?

 

Probably used to store potatoes. Russian army loves potatoes!!!

[bobh]

Soderman had one which was sold in 1977. However, it was proof. I thought they were all supposed to be Proofs... This one is not proof, which causes me to doubt it.

Kazakov agrees with you on this (also the 1906 five and ten roubles should be proof only).

[BKB]

Kazakov agrees with you on this (also the 1906 five and ten roubles should be proof only).

 

It is simply my IMXO, but, I would stay away from this...

[bobh]

I have written an email to Künker about this and hope to hear from them soon.

[Candidate]

So the church was "destroyed by Russians" during the Soviet time, but the building still stands -- maybe used to store ammunition and/or weapons? Anyone know anything more?

 

Yes, I found a bit more about the church and it's fate.

But firstly, I would like to correct one-kuna's translation. He wrote:

 

In Soviet time this church was destroyed by russians. This is a description from MiM auction

The exact description from MiM auction says: "...храм в советское время был разрушен".

The correct translation is: "church was destroyed in Sovet time".

It is no mention whether it was destroyed "by Russians" or "by Germans" or by any other concrete nation's representatives.

 

More information can be found at http://ricolor.org/history/pv/32/

Among other interesting facts this web-page says that:

 

- "В настоящее время территория Большого лагеря занята под Военно-учебный полигон ... В лагере сохранилась планировка и старинные аллеи, от храма ... не осталось никаких следов".

 

Brief translation is:

"At present the territory of [former] "Large campus" is occupied by military training grounds ... [former] campus retained it's general layout and old alleys but there are no traces of the church left".

 

- "о том, когда он был разрушен, точных сведений обнаружить не удалось".

 

Translation: "there is no exact information of when it [church] was destroyed".

 

I would like to comment that many Russian churches were destroyed in the war of 1941-1945 by Nazis during bombings, artillery attacks, etc.

In some churches on the occupied territories German troops were arranging hospitals, warehouses, etc. of which there are numerous documentary evidences.

 

Krasnoe Selo area (where former campus is situated) was occupied by German troops from September 1941 till January 1944.

So most possibly the church did not survive the war; maybe it was "destroyed by Germans" during this period.

 

And speculations about that "building still stands" and "that Russian army was storing amunition or potatoes or else" in this church have no grounds.

[alexbq2]

 

Krasnoe Selo area (where former campus is situated) was occupied by German troops from September 1941 till January 1944.

So most possibly the church did not survive the war; maybe it was "destroyed by Germans" during this period.

 

And speculations about that "building still stands" and "that Russian army was storing amunition or potatoes or else" in this church have no grounds.

 

Candidate, even if the church was destroyed in WW2, I am more than certain that it was not used as a church in 1920's and 1930's, as most churches were shut down by the government and were often used for utilitarian purposes. Due to their thick walls, small windows, and other thermodynamic properties - potato storage was very common. At least a lot of abandoned rural churches that I visited in the 1980's smelled of mold and potatoes.

 

Also do not forget this famous satirical quote from the 1920's - "Храм Спаса На Картошке".

[Candidate]

Candidate, even if the church was destroyed in WW2, I am more than certain that it was not used as a church in 1920's and 1930's

Yes, this building was not used as a church after 1917 (there is a mention about that at web-page which I've quoted).

Though, there is no information of how it was used in 20's and 30's; or was it used at all or just stood closed.

But anyway that was not a subject of previous discussion.

[one-kuna]

what would you input for the topic besides your unnessesary correction and read following respond mentioning soviet propaganda which you never count on in your replies

[one-kuna]

Candidate, even if the church was destroyed in WW2, I am more than certain that it was not used as a church in 1920's and 1930's, as most churches were shut down by the government and were often used for utilitarian purposes. Due to their thick walls, small windows, and other thermodynamic properties - potato storage was very common. At least a lot of abandoned rural churches that I visited in the 1980's smelled of mold and potatoes.

 

Also do not forget this famous satirical quote from the 1920's - "Храм Спаса На Картошке".

i would keep same side on this topic

because

reference-link by candidate is from soviet-propaganda time so any information on church would be altered in favor of soviet regime

[altyn]

I think that the correction made by candidate - that the church had been destroyed during the Soviet times, is not unnecessary. Accuracy is always welcome. However, that is not my pont. What I find noteworthy is that the site is still not freely accessible. This suggests that all or most of the coins still might be there - buried in the ground. Judging by how infrequently this year is offered for sale, they have not been recovered. Or they have but are kept hidden somewhere.

 

Merry Christmas!

[Candidate]

reference-link by candidate is from soviet-propaganda time so any information on church would be altered in favor of soviet regime

Could you please explain in who's "favor" you have altered MIM's auction description in your variant of translation, where you wrote: "In Soviet time this church was destroyed by russians" ?

[one-kuna]

Seems to me that you are not considering the soviet propaganda data.

If it says that it was destroyed in soviet time, who and how do you think the church got destroyed - by independent contractors from the West, or some from Middle East, or soviet communists - who are restricted religion since Ulianov came in, and took all from a nation where you are from and myself ?

Major problem in a history now is where you get the requested information - from soviet period source, which have been altered to soviet motive or you taking it from trusted west or pre-revolutionary imperial russian sources.

You may consult any western historical institutions if you have any doubts on relation between soviet-communist regime and religion in Russia

[BKB]

Do not know about soviet propaganda, but this is what was written about the structure on Russian forum:

 

Храм иконы Божией матери Отрада и утешение на Ходынском поле

 

 

 

 

В 1906 г. действительный статский советник И. А. Колесников подал прошение московскому генерал-губернатору Гершельману о постройке на свои средства храма для казаков 1-го Донского казачьего полка имени генералиссимуса князя Суворова и 1-й гренадерской артиллерийской бригады графа Брюса.

 

В 1907 г. состоялась закладка храма, а уже через два года он был открыт. Закрыт в 1922 г., в здании размещались красноармейский клуб, общежитие, склад и строительный цех авиазавода.

 

В 1980-х гг. на месте церкви планировали построить площадку для разворота машин, подъезжающих к моргу Боткинской больницы. Однако главврач больницы И.П.Кузин предложил воссоздать в нем вновь первую в СССР больничную церковь. В 1991 г. церковь была передана РПЦ. Сейчас храм находится на реконструкции.

 

For those who do not read Russian, looks like the church is still there and is undergoing reconstruction. There was a plan to demolish it in the 80's, but, apparently, that did not go through.

[lennysky]

So all those hoping of getting access to "Once in a Lifetime" coin will have to wait a bit longer