Circulating world gold

[ikaros]

Well, I've been crawling through the Internet and can't find a definitive answer, so I'll throw it out here and see if anyone can answer.

 

Simply put, what was the last circulating gold coin? I know the US stopped in 1933, and most other nations stopped circulating gold between the world wars, but who issued the last gold coin for circulation, and when?

 

The reason I ask is I'm working on a world set for my birth year, and Krause lists a handful of gold issues even as late as 1963 (several denominations in Iran, for example), but does not indicate if they were circulating or not. And that would rather change the potential scope of my project.

 

Thanks!

[ccg]

Part of the problem lies with the definition of circulating and how you choose to define it:

 

1. A coin that is normally used and accepted at face value (e.g. US dime)

2. A coin that is issued at face value and intended for circulation though seldom encountered (e.g. US half dollar)

3. A coin that is issued at face value and is intended for collectors (e.g. UK modern copper-nickel £5 crowns)

 

Using the last definition, then there would even be several issues within the past decade that would qualify.

[Saor Alba]

Countries like Iran have circulating gold coins - but they trade at variable rates depending on the price of gold that day. So earlier Pahlavis and later Azadis trade at a rate that is determined by the price of gold. They are not intended so much for commerce as they are a store of wealth, in a country where people tend to not trust paper money - for a good reason.

 

Likewise I noticed when I was in China a few years ago that it was easy to buy and sell gold there - a marked change from years ago when the communist government strictly prohibited gold ownership. Old habits die hard and people tend to convert their money into gold for long term savings.

 

Circulation patterns of gold coins have evolved from daily commerce to becoming one of more of a long term store of wealth that doesn't get dug out to buy groceries at the corner market, but gets stashed in case the shtuff hits the fan.

[ikaros]

Part of the problem lies with the definition of circulating and how you choose to define it:

 

1. A coin that is normally used and accepted at face value (e.g. US dime)

2. A coin that is issued at face value and intended for circulation though seldom encountered (e.g. US half dollar)

3. A coin that is issued at face value and is intended for collectors (e.g. UK modern copper-nickel £5 crowns)

 

Using the last definition, then there would even be several issues within the past decade that would qualify.

I'm drawing the line at 2. Bullion and NCLT are just not interesting to me; I'm interested in the stuff that was legitimately intended to circulate at a fixed face value.

[ikaros]

Countries like Iran have circulating gold coins - but they trade at variable rates depending on the price of gold that day. So earlier Pahlavis and later Azadis trade at a rate that is determined by the price of gold. They are not intended so much for commerce as they are a store of wealth, in a country where people tend to not trust paper money - for a good reason.

So it's not the sort of thing where you might go into a Sharper Image and plunk down a couple on a chair that has more modes of vibration than are really necessary. More akin to buying a quarter, half or whole ounce of gold than a $5, $10 or $20 piece.

 

This makes my wallet breathe a sigh of relief.

 

I guess that still leaves open the question of just what was the last gold coin intended for circulation at a fixed value...

[ScottO]

soverigns? not sur ewhen they stopped being curculation pieces,

[ikaros]

soverigns? not sur ewhen they stopped being curculation pieces,

I think those stopped within a few years of the end of WWI. Krause shows regular yearly mintage until 1917, then it stopped until 1925 for a one year issue. After that, there was a proof issue in 1937, then nothing until 1957, at which time I'm pretty sure it must've been considered a bullion coin. So they stopped minting them eight years before the US did, but when or whether they did a 'recall', I don't know. Egypt seems to have had a circulating 100 piastre piece in 1938.

 

About the only guide I have is whether Krause lists values for lower grades than uncirculated; if not, that suggests to me that they were probably not intended for circulation.

[ScottO]

HMRC guidance says that coins in the UK are exempt from CGT if they were legal tender at the point of purchase and are legal tender at the time of disposal. So pre 1837 sovereigns are not legal tender having been demonetised. Post 1837 sovereigns are currently legal tender but as you'll never find them used as legal tender, demonetising them will make them liable for CGT.

so offically they are still legal tender lol

[Saor Alba]

Saudi Arabia was still using gold sovereigns into the early 1960's as a medium of exchange. The last circulating gold coins struck by the USA Mint were for Saudi Arabia and they were made for Aramco Company to pay oilfield workers, the government there etc.

 

British sovereigns were struck with frozen dates of 1925 into the 1950's for a similar reason, for British business in the Arabian peninsula. They couldn't exactly strike up QEII head coins or they would have offended the conservative Saudis, so they restruck the 1925 dated KGV coins with the King's portrait on them.

[Saor Alba]

HMRC guidance says that coins in the UK are exempt from CGT if they were legal tender at the point of purchase and are legal tender at the time of disposal. So pre 1837 sovereigns are not legal tender having been demonetised. Post 1837 sovereigns are currently legal tender but as you'll never find them used as legal tender, demonetising them will make them liable for CGT.

so offically they are still legal tender lol

 

 

I am pretty sure it is not 1837, but rather 1817 when the first 20/- denominated sovereign was issued in the weight that has remained the same ever since.

[ikaros]

Saudi Arabia was still using gold sovereigns into the early 1960's as a medium of exchange. The last circulating gold coins struck by the USA Mint were for Saudi Arabia and they were made for Aramco Company to pay oilfield workers, the government there etc.

 

But were they trading at a fixed value, or as gold bullion?

 

British sovereigns were struck with frozen dates of 1925 into the 1950's for a similar reason, for British business in the Arabian peninsula. They couldn't exactly strike up QEII head coins or they would have offended the conservative Saudis, so they restruck the 1925 dated KGV coins with the King's portrait on them.

 

Oy...

[Saor Alba]

When the coin is gold during that time, it traded on it's own merits as a large denomination sum of money. Gold did not fluctuate in value during that time like it does now - it was fairly fixed at $35 an oz then. The situation would have been the same in Iran up until the price hold on gold was removed by Nixon in the 1970's - coins would have traded as currency - albeit a fairly sizable transaction would have been negotiated in sums of gold coins - instead of cash etc.

[ccg]

British sovereigns were struck with frozen dates of 1925 into the 1950's for a similar reason, for British business in the Arabian peninsula. They couldn't exactly strike up QEII head coins or they would have offended the conservative Saudis, so they restruck the 1925 dated KGV coins with the King's portrait on them.

 

So a QEII sov is unacceptable yet a MTT is?!

[ScottO]

and there were half sovs minted frequently until 1932.

[Saor Alba]

So a QEII sov is unacceptable yet a MTT is?!

 

 

Consider the society where they were being used, ie the KGV sovereigns. MTT's didn't circulate in Saudi Arabia, really only Yemen - and they still circulate to some extent there according to people I know that have travelled there with the oil company we worked for.

[ccg]

Consider the society where they were being used, ie the KGV sovereigns. MTT's didn't circulate in Saudi Arabia, really only Yemen - and they still circulate to some extent there according to people I know that have travelled there with the oil company we worked for.

 

Okay. I was kind of wondering since KM lists a Hejaz countermarked MTT.

 

As for MTT circulation, I wouldn't be suprised if they're still used. Several months ago a local shop here got about 100 Saudi riyals (KM#18/39, AH1354,67,70,74) in various grades but mostly 'baggy' along with 2 dozen or so MTTs, of which many would only grade VG.