Moustan Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Hello prospectful readers, am posting this in the hope that we may have a diehard Russian collector in our midst. By no means my forte, I have a slight interest in Russian coins - particularily the early silver pieces of the U.S.S.R produced in the 20s, however the 1st Russian coin I ever bought was an 1833 5 kopeck. It still stands out, it has an incredibly pronounced, yet battered, rim. It's of the bronze variety and this rim seems to have saved it a lot of wear and tear through the ages - the coin itself is probably about VF thanks to it's bodyguard. Was this common in the coins of the era? Монета: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Hello and welcome to coinpeople. Based on my research, 1833 is the most commonly seen year for EM mint 5 Kopecks of this series. though 1831, 1832, and 1837 are not too far behind. Thanks very much for showing. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Hello prospectful readers, am posting this in the hope that we may have a diehard Russian collector in our midst.By no means my forte, I have a slight interest in Russian coins - particularily the early silver pieces of the U.S.S.R produced in the 20s, however the 1st Russian coin I ever bought was an 1833 5 kopeck. It still stands out, it has an incredibly pronounced, yet battered, rim. It's of the bronze variety and this rim seems to have saved it a lot of wear and tear through the ages - the coin itself is probably about VF thanks to it's bodyguard. Was this common in the coins of the era? Монета: this 5 kopeks is very valuable for you as it was a first buy for you among others russian coins, so you can keep it... due to its bad condition (less than VF) - it is not really collectable piece (for myself at list)... to give you a stimulus plan as we all now going through one - buy same coin but in real XF with no bumps... there are so many met...and they are not too expensive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moustan Posted February 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 this 5 kopeks is very valuable for you as it was a first buy for you among others russian coins, so you can keep it...due to its bad condition (less than VF) - it is not really collectable piece (for myself at list)... to give you a stimulus plan as we all now going through one - buy same coin but in real XF with no bumps... there are so many met...and they are not too expensive... Lol, I don't think I could sell any of my coins tbh. Being in Scotland there are only 2 local (within 60 miles) coin dealers that I'm aware of, do you know where I could buy a better specimen of this coin? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Lol, I don't think I could sell any of my coins tbh. Being in Scotland there are only 2 local (within 60 miles) coin dealers that I'm aware of, do you know where I could buy a better specimen of this coin? Cheers be patient, watch ebay and coming european and american auctions, good luck... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moustan Posted February 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Hello and welcome to coinpeople. Based on my research, 1833 is the most commonly seen year for EM mint 5 Kopecks of this series. though 1831, 1832, and 1837 are not too far behind. Thanks very much for showing. Steve Cheers was EM the Petrograd mint? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moustan Posted February 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 be patient, watch ebay and coming european and american auctions, good luck... Thank You Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Cheers was EM the Petrograd mint? No, Ekaterinburg. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yekaterinburg Close to the source of Russia's copper. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Hello and welcome to coinpeople. Based on my research, 1833 is the most commonly seen year for EM mint 5 Kopecks of this series. though 1831, 1832, and 1837 are not too far behind. Thanks very much for showing. Steve Isn't 1837 EM-FX scarce? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Isn't 1837 EM-FX scarce? 1837 as a whole is not scarce at all. At the mintmaster level, I'd certainly agree EM-FX is scarcer than EM-KT or EM-NA. However, I've still seen quite a few though I'd need to do a more careful count to give relative percentages. Very roughly (by eye) I'd say 45% EM-KT, 35% EM-NA, 20% EM-FX. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Isn't 1837 EM-FX scarce? let me refresh everyone memory here that as of today our collectors world know the 5 kopeks 1837 EM FX as by Uzdenikov (.), Brekke (-), Bitkin (R1) Looking at above grades - "scarce" is by Uzdenikov only ! For the rest of researches it is RARE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 1837 as a whole is not scarce at all. At the mintmaster level, I'd certainly agree EM-FX is scarcer than EM-KT or EM-NA. However, I've still seen quite a few though I'd need to do a more careful count to give relative percentages. Very roughly (by eye) I'd say 45% EM-KT, 35% EM-NA, 20% EM-FX. Steve So far I count the following number of coins (and my 19thC copper database is only just starting) EM-FX 15 EM-KT 50 EM-NA 36 Initial guess wasn't too bad. Rarity (on my usual scale) EM-KT c+ EM-NA c EM-FX S Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Isn't 1837 EM-FX scarce? for curiosity and some information visit molotok.ru and see how many 5 kopeks of 1837 EM FX are on sale there against the rest of 5 kopeks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 for curiosity and some information visit molotok.ru and see how many 5 kopeks of 1837 EM FX are on sale there against the rest of 5 kopeks... almost forgot 5 kopek 1837 EM FX - 5 rubles by Ilyin ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 IMXO -- coin, in general, is not rare by any means now. However, most specimens show serious porosity and traces of verdigris. I do not know if it is your experience, Steve... Most of these coins are dug out of the ground using the metal detecting technologies absent in the times of Illin. I would say that a dry specimen that was never in the ground is very rare. Much rarer than most other years/mint marks of this type. My limited experience -- a dry specimen of this coin (not rotten, or green, or black, or porous) in true VF+/XF is very rare. Same goes for 1837 10 kop em-fx, which is even scarcer. I have never seen 5 or 10 in AU or Unc. While most other dates/mint marks are available in high grades. Thus, Illin was probably right but that all changed now, thanks to all these "gravediggers" armed with mine finding technology. P.S. Mr. Kuna, there is absolutely no reason to shout. Your point about the catalog listings is not dispositive of the issue. Most catalogers simply repeat the info from previously published works. Where would Mr. Uzdenikov get the rarity info, for instance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 All good points BKB. To my friend Mr One Kuna the whole point of my rarity studies is not to have to rely on tables that were, in some cases, published 100 years ago but to actually to do some work and see what really is rare and what is not. There will be times when what I see doesn't agree with Bitkin or Ilyin. And that's not a bad thing...maybe it's a good thing. Maybe we've learned something. Best Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Right now on Molotok: 5 kop 1837 em-fx 2. All 2 are out of the ground and not collectible. em-na 10 em-kt 16 All coins are in awful to VF condition. FX are awful. 1837 10 kop em fx -- 1 - virtually dead. Cannot see much except the year and the mint mark. I do not know what it proves for either side of this argument, for, unlike Steve, I do not know how to interpret incomplete statistical data. However, this control group provides a ratio that is more favorable to em-fx, than Mr. Moulding's tables... P.S. There are none on ebay, which show that Molotok is a place to get these if compared to ebay. What else can we compare here? -- I am beginning to like this scientific method to numismatics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Right now on Molotok: 5 kop 1837 em-fx 2. All 2 are out of the ground and not collectible. em-na 10 em-kt 16 : I do not know what it proves for either side of this argument, for, unlike Steve, I do not know how to interpret incomplete statistical data. However, this control group provides a ratio that is more favorable to em-fx, than Mr. Moulding's tables... Well,making inferences in favor of an argument based on a much smaller data set (28 coins in our case) compared to a much larger one (101 coins) is not usually the best approach, though it is often done (politicians are especially guilty) That said, we can compare our ratios statistically, and if they are significantly different ask why. Either way I think we'll learn something to be added to what we've seen in Bitkin & Ilyin. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Right now on Molotok: 5 kop 1837 em-fx 2. All 2 are out of the ground and not collectible. em-na 10 em-kt 16 All coins are in awful to VF condition. FX are awful. 1837 10 kop em fx -- 1 - virtually dead. Cannot see much except the year and the mint mark. I do not know what it proves for either side of this argument, for, unlike Steve, I do not know how to interpret incomplete statistical data. However, this control group provides a ratio that is more favorable to em-fx, than Mr. Moulding's tables... P.S. There are none on ebay, which show that Molotok is a place to get these if compared to ebay. What else can we compare here? -- I am beginning to like this scientific method to numismatics... your "not scarce at all" 5 kopeks of 1837 EM FX was esimated close to $450.00 at the recent Moscow Monety i Medali auction 55, lot 284... don't you think that russians (who live in russia) did not come across a rarity of this piatak, i think they did, and i think they very much can see those ugly ones came from under of ground last few years since russians got those equipments to find coins which was not available earlier during long soviet-komunist time...and since not so many nice ones are available at auctions and private offering - they are still RARE... i have ugly one, it is questionable, it can be not from under ground, - forty backs i paid last year compare to Ilyin 5 rubles a hundred years ago... forty backs is a price for not rare coin but at list scarce? that's what it is? ten times more price is for sure RARE coin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 your "not scarce at all" 5 kopeks of 1837 EM FX was esimated close to $450.00 at the recent Moscow Monety i Medali auction 55, lot 284...don't you think that russians (who live in russia) did not come across a rarity of this piatak, i think they did, and i think they very much can see those ugly ones came from under of ground last few years since russians got those equipments to find coins which was not available earlier during long soviet-komunist time...and since not so many nice ones are available at auctions and private offering - they are still RARE... i have ugly one, it is questionable, it can be not from under ground, - forty backs i paid last year compare to Ilyin 5 rubles a hundred years ago... forty backs is a price for not rare coin but at list scarce? that's what it is? ten times more price is for sure RARE coin Who said the 1837 EM-FX is not scarce at all?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Who said the 1837 EM-FX is not scarce at all?? no one, we are still figuring out that is the 1837 EM FX piatak about to scarce, scarce, very scarce, extremely scarce, excessively scarce, or about rare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 no one... I see. In English when you say your "not scarce at all" 5 kopeks of 1837 EM FX , you are quoting or paraphrasing somebody. And when I referred to the 1837 as a whole (without regard to mintmaster) being 'not scarce at all' it sounded like you were mistakenly quoting me. I'm glad you've clarified (albeit while laughing hysterically or clapping...I don't remember which...I lose track ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Well,making inferences in favor of an argument based on a much smaller data set (28 coins in our case) compared to a much larger one (101 coins) is not usually the best approach, though it is often done (politicians are especially guilty) That said, we can compare our ratios statistically, and if they are significantly different ask why. Either way I think we'll learn something to be added to what we've seen in Bitkin & Ilyin. Steve Ok, ok... do not get upset. You know I have no science background. I am pointing out that on one given day there were 30 coins on molotok alone, which means that in order to have a meaningful data set for this year, which would allow drawing of a more accurate inference, it should be in the thousands, not 100+... I could be wrong. On a more formal note, I agree that 28 is definitely not enough, and that 101 is better and your table is more accurate and ... (should I bow here and call you a teacher? ) But, I think, the issue is a source of data. Data from auctions is not representative of the true picture here, because no one bothers to sell these coins at auctions, except the em-fx, because you can say Illin 5 rubles and estimate it at $450... Thus, you would normally see more of FX variety at auctions. Most of these were dug up and remained in Russia. They never hit the western market and ebay. That is why there are none on ebay right now. Thus, i think, data on these should be collected from sources like molotok, conros, but mostly from diggers, coin clubs and local russian markets, and these later sources are not available to us. But, all in all, it would be interesting to see how Illin's rarity has changed with times. Which coins are still rare, and which are only scarce or common now. For instance, there are some 10 and 15 ruble coins that can be purchased almost at will if you do not care if the coin is rotten and green. (1797 am 2 kop Narrow cypher, 1811 km-pb denga (but not 1 kopek)) Also, the Illin's "rubles" are commonly being misinterpreted. For instance, the price was tied in with a particular condition (VF+/XF) and was not in itself a rarity designator. Illin took those from a few major sales of copper coins. A lower quality would be much cheaper, and a higher condition would be 3 to 10 times more expensive. For more important coins you see these discrepancies in the contemporary advertisements. Also seen in auction sales. Rarity, however, was set separately -- for instance, some 10 ruble coins are marked as rare, while other 10 ruble coins are only scarce. No one pays attention to those designations, but, in reality, this is the source of most modern rarity tables, including that of Mr. V. Uzdenikov. Everyone, including myself, just say -- it is 5 rubles in Illin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 I see. In English when you say your "not scarce at all" 5 kopeks of 1837 EM FX , you are quoting or paraphrasing somebody. And when I referred to the 1837 as a whole (without regard to mintmaster) being 'not scarce at all' it sounded like you were mistakenly quoting me. I'm glad you've clarified (albeit while laughing hysterically or clapping...I don't remember which...I lose track ). Rarity of the 5 kopeks 1837 EM FX Grand Duke Georgii Mikhailovich (Rare) Ilyin ® 5 rubles Petrov ( ) pls help Brekke (-) Uzdenikov (.) Yusupov ( ) pls help Bitkin (R1) Diakov (R2) Adrianov ( ) pls help Moulding (S) One-kuna (indecided) Anybody else ( ) welcome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Rarity of the 5 kopeks 1837 EM FX Petrov ( ) pls help -- "0" , while 1837 cm is 50 kop. Yusupov ( ) pls help -- cannot help until you deliver what you promised :-) Adrianov ( ) pls help -- do not know what it is in his new book, but his personal opinion voiced in the discussion was that the coin is common, and not even scarce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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