Drusus Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 40.5 1 Mark - Bielefeld (Westphalia) 1923 Private Issue (savings bank) / Gilded Bronze This has proven a bit difficult to translate. I just know it is a private issue, possibly by the city bank. The coin has a great portrait and an odd scene on the rev....I like the design but it gets a bit busy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
De Orc Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 Have to say that is rather eye catching, what a great addition to your collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 That is a beauty. Any designer's initials hidden anywhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 Nicely designed piece, that shows a strong influence from the great German medalist Karl Goetz, with his political satire. Notice that the kneeling man is a devil incarnate in the form of President Poincare of France. This may reference the French occupation of the Ruhr valley during that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
constanius Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 Very interesting medal, these might not be the right verses shown as it depends which bible version you use. Wisdom of Jesus Son of Sirach Chapter 23 [7] Listen, my children, to instruction concerning speech; the one who observes it will never be caught. Wisdom of Jesus Son of Sirach Chapter30 [12] Bow down his neck in his youth, and beat his sides while he is young. Not very helpful I know. Is President Wilson's 14 Point Plan 1918 and Ruhr Hilfe is Ruhr Help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 Very interesting medal, these might not be the right verses shown as it depends which bible version you use. Wisdom of Jesus Son of Sirach Chapter 23 [7] Listen, my children, to instruction concerning speech; the one who observes it will never be caught. Wisdom of Jesus Son of Sirach Chapter30 [12] Bow down his neck in his youth, and beat his sides while he is young. Not very helpful I know. Is President Wilson's 14 Point Plan 1918 and Ruhr Hilfe is Ruhr Help I had never heard of a "Wisdom of Jesus Son of Sirach" book in the Bible. A net search revealed that it is included in Eastern Orthodox versions of the Bible, but not in the Protestant version. Given that Germany is mostly (I think) Lutheran, the choice of Eastern Orthodox verses on a German medal seems odd to me. And that hat the man on the obverse is wearing looks more Greek than German to me. It's a very interesting and attractive medal (notgeld?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
constanius Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 The Wisdom of Ben Sira by Yeshua ben Sira, also known as The Wisdom of Jesus son of Sirach or merely Sirach, and known by some Christians as Ecclesiasticus (not to be confused with Ecclesiastes), is a work from the 2nd Century BC, originally written in Hebrew. The book is included in the Septuagint and is accepted as part of the biblical canon by CATHOLICS and Eastern Orthodox, but not by most PROTESTANTS, and is listed in Article VI of the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England[1]. Although it was not accepted into the Tanakh, the Jewish biblical canon, The Wisdom of Ben Sira is occasionally quoted in the Talmud and works of rabbinic literature. The Greek Church Fathers also called it "The All-Virtuous Wisdom," while the Latin Church Fathers, beginning with Cyprian[2], termed it Ecclesiasticus because it was frequently read in churches, leading to the title liber ecclesiasticus (Latin and Latinised Greek for "church book"). In Egypt, it was translated into Greek by the author's grandson, who added a preface. The Prologue to Ben Sira is generally considered the earliest witness to a canon of the books of the prophets, and thus the date of the text as we have it is the subject of intense scrutiny. What a fabulous & complicated design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabbs Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 Given that Germany is mostly (I think) Lutheran, the choice of Eastern Orthodox verses on a German medal seems odd to me. Don't know much about Bible verses, but the three large groups in (today's) Germany are: - no religious affiliation (about 34 percent) - Roman Catholics (about 31 percent) - EKD/Lutherans (about 30 percent) The main motto on that medal, "Michel unbesiegt aber betrogen" (Michel, undefeated but betrayed), basically repeats what in German is called the Dolchstoß-Legende (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stab-in-the-back_legend ). Michel, with his night cap on, is the "typical" German who can also be found in many modern political cartoons, except that the person portrayed here looks like Bismarck. The motto on the other side "Einig und gleich, ein Volk, ein Reich" means "United and equal, one people, one empire". Interesting how the letters of the word "Goldmark" are used as initials of "Germanen liebet Deutschland mit Andacht Reinheit Kraft" (Germans, love Germany with devotion, purity, strength). The date "11.8.1923" refers to the day when Germany stopped or rather interrupted the reparation payments due to the French-Belgian occupation of the Ruhr area. The name Poincaré is easily legible; the other one is a little tougher: You can see MINISTER SEVE above a ring = Minister Severing. Carl Severing was a politician (Social Democrat) in the Empire and the Weimar Republic, and he was from (near) Bielefeld ... Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabbs Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 Had a look at those Bible verses, and I think that Jesus Sirach 23,7 should be read in its context (ie. 23,7 through 23,15). That could be interpreted as saying that Poincaré was a liar. The other verse, attributed to Severing here, is obvious. Now what does this "Schmied von Bielefeld" mean"? Seems that is a local tale about a smith from Bielefeld who first made a pact with the devil and later literally sacked him. See http://www.helmig-muenzen.de/historie.htm ... a page which actually shows that medal. Note that this coin dealer uses terms like "pompous" and "childish" when referring to how Poincaré is depicted, and "tasteless" regarding the use of the biblical verses. But just as in many cartoons or Goetz's medals from those years, such propaganda was kind of popular back then ... Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 Don't know much about Bible verses, but the three large groups in (today's) Germany are:- no religious affiliation (about 34 percent) - Roman Catholics (about 31 percent) - EKD/Lutherans (about 30 percent) Thank you for your most helpful explanations & clarifications. You can see MINISTER SEVE above a ring = Minister Severing. I wonder if it might also have a second meaning. "Minister Severing" is rather oddly broken up into syllables, something not seen elsewhere on the medal (and therefore possibly significant?). Does "Min Ist Er Se Ve O" make sense in any other way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted March 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 That IS odd that it is broken up in such a way. Thanks for all the help deciphering the inscriptions and symbolism on this token. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabbs Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 Odd indeed, but when "broken up", the single elements do not make sense. Well, none that I am aware of ... Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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