Funny looking Paul's re-overstrike 1793 2 kopeks

[IgorS]

http://cgi.ebay.com/RUSSIA-CATHERINE-II-Co...1QQcmdZViewItem

 

Edit: corrected link

[STEVE MOULDING]

http://cgi.ebay.com/RUSSIA-CATHERINE-II-Co...1QQcmdZViewItem

Hi Igor. The link didn't work for me. This one appears to be better:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=180194781234

 

Steve

[STEVE MOULDING]

And I agree it doesn't look right. Undercoin letters and numbers are crude enough to warrant a fake flag in my opinion.

 

Steve

[grivna1726]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=180194781234

 

Igor, by "funny looking" do you mean "unusual" or "fake"?

 

I'm no expert in the various overstriking programs, but I doubt this thing is real.

[grivna1726]

Undercoin letters and numbers are crude enough to warrant a fake flag in my opinion.

 

Steve

 

 

 

The more I look at it, the more my doubt grows.

 

[squirrel]

I agree it has a less than authentic look to it.

 

but isnt this an awfully obscure (and not very attractive) rarity, for someone to go to the trouble of reproducing as a counterfeit?

[STEVE MOULDING]

I agree it has a less than authentic look to it.

 

but isnt this an awfully obscure (and not very attractive) rarity, for someone to go to the trouble of reproducing as a counterfeit?

Not at all. Paul's 2K overstrikes of Catherine's 4K Ciphers start at a couple of hundred dollars and often show little undercoin. Such a spectacularly visible undercoin like this would likely push value to closer to $1000. It may be well worth counterfeiting.

 

Steve

[IgorS]

Igor, by "funny looking" do you mean "unusual" or "fake"?

 

I'm no expert in the various overstriking programs, but I doubt this thing is real.

 

I was thinking fake as well.

And I agree with Steve, they are worth making with such great undercoin details.

[STEVE MOULDING]

I was thinking fake as well.

And I agree with Steve, they are worth making with such great undercoin details.

 

$261.50 Caveat emptor.

[grivna1726]

$261.50 Caveat emptor.

 

The high bidder, "russianrubels", seems to be a frequent buyer of Russian numismatic items.

 

Hopefully, he/she will one day stumble onto this forum and take part in the discussions here.

[gxseries]

I am not quite too sure what to say on this. On first glance it looks like it has the characteristics of an overstrike but as mentioned, the elements look unusually crude. I cannot quite tell if this is due to the pressure from the overstrike and corrosion or it's just a counterfeit. There seems to be another layer underneath but the details are quite blur to make any proper analysis.

 

I am guessing it's a matter of time that there are more overstruck counterfeits popping up - a 1793/96 4 kopek over 2 kopek is actually quite scarce compared to a 1793/1796 10 kopek over 5 kopek. Basok has an example for both of them and price difference is usually at least twice as much from what I have seen, and even better depending on the underlying image and overall condition.

[STEVE MOULDING]

I am not quite too sure what to say on this. On first glance it looks like it has the characteristics of an overstrike but as mentioned, the elements look unusually crude. I cannot quite tell if this is due to the pressure from the overstrike and corrosion or it's just a counterfeit. There seems to be another layer underneath but the details are quite blur to make any proper analysis.

 

I am guessing it's a matter of time that there are more overstruck counterfeits popping up - a 1793/96 4 kopek over 2 kopek is actually quite scarce compared to a 1793/1796 10 kopek over 5 kopek. Basok has an example for both of them and price difference is usually at least twice as much from what I have seen, and even better depending on the underlying image and overall condition.

 

It's not just that the letters are crude; there is no real flattening at all of the supposed undercoin letters or date; they're just too well defined. It's as if the overstriking die was missing whole areas that never touched the undercoin. Alex Basok passed around a similar piece at the 2000 RNS meeting I attended in New York. In that case it was a 10K-->5K fake. The supposed Cipher showed an extremely rare EM mintmark below the 1796 date. It was a fake though. Interestingly that coin, and this one, showed no broadening of the flan (normal for an overstrike), suspiciously crisp undercoin letters, and a raised rim. Could be from the same people (albeit 7 years later). I don't have an image with me of the 2000 fake (I'm in England) but it's in one of the JRNS's. I can post the image when I get back if anyone's interested, or perhaps somebody has else one.

 

Steve

[gxseries]

See, this is where I struggle to understand or even attempt a proper explaination of how overstrikes should appear. Perhaps a better understanding of how overstriking on uneven planchets with uneven striking, pressure etc might give a better overview but this is beyond my understanding.

 

Areas that should be flattened aren't necessarily flattened in quite a fair bit of examples that I have seen such as this example that I have:

(the latter words of "4 kopeks" should be very visible)

 

However though, anything that has high value is prone to counterfeits so I guess it's a matter of time when an explosion of them will start popping up.

 

Speaking of which, I believe this is a counterfeit:

 

Just kept it for the oddity sake.

[squirrel]

GX, I dont believe your 1788 MM 5K overstruck is counterfeit. It looks like a nice overstrike, just cleaned or polished at one time.

[grivna1726]

Speaking of which, I believe this is a counterfeit:

 

Gx, what do you see about the coin that makes you doubt its authenticity?

 

There are lots of people here who know more than I do about copper overstrikes but, like squirrel, I don't see anything in the picture you've shown that looks suspicious.