1849 SPM coppers

[BKB]

I am new to this forum, and I apologize if the question is misplaced.

Most other russian numismatic forums are very particular on the placement of questions and comments...

 

Did anyone ever came across any reference which described a difference between 1849 spm original strikes and novodels?

 

It seems that anywhere I look, there are listings for originals and for novodels. However, no explanation is given on how to separate the two.

The same story with 1840 SPB coppers...

 

Thank you.

[gxseries]

Good question really. Welcome to coinpeople by the way.

 

The 3 kopek coin of this series is notoriously well known for it's weak strike like the example here: (sorry, don't have 3 kopeks of it )

 

 

In general, novodels of most Russian coins are difficult to tell apart from the original except the striking features especially coins of the 1800s as technology didn't differ too much 50 years later when most of the novodels were struck.

 

IF I am not mistaken, novodels are usually in UNC or proof and kept in collectors collection and rarely did they ever get circulated as collectors really did pay decent money for such novodels. On the other hand, one would expect typical strikes to be "weak" and circulated.

 

Perhaps if the particular sample that you are looking at is PROOF or perhaps UNC, it is more than likely to be novodel as it cannot be possible that such coins circulated in the public, and to be grabbed by some smart typical Russian to keep one in his collection.

 

By the way, the 1840 3 kopek novodel should be fairly easy as there is NO mintmark for it.

[BKB]

Thank you and thank you.

However, I was specifically asking about the pattern series of 1849 spm and 1840 spb. Both are listed in catalogs in conditions varying from VF to Proof (both novodels and patterns). Also, I remember reading an article about SPB mint which stated that begining sometime in 1800's there were made a limited quantity of Proof sets of all circulation coins, which were then sent to museums.

 

On another forum a scholar of Russian coins said that they can be told apart because the planchettes for original patterns were covered by bronze, which gives an original a dark-cherry color. He also stated that all patterns were made as Proof. However, I cannot find confirmation in literature.

[gxseries]

Now that's a slightly different story. The 1849/60 pattern is only known as a novodel because in 1860, the pattern of the reverse double head eagle is made, and as a test, they took a die made in 1849 and struck samples with them! Technically speaking, this shouldn't be called a novodel and it should be classified as struck in 1860, but I guess, because the year 1849 is visible on the coin, most catalogues warn collectors that such test was done.

 

Now I kind of disagree with the analysis discrimating upon color. Not ALL patterns were made as proof and that is a major error on his part. Generally speaking, most novodels aren't as easy to find as the original stuck coins as these were ordered by collectors as they themselves had trouble finding them!

[BKB]

I appologize if I am not clear. There are two series that interest me. One is 1849 spm (5, 3, 2, 1, 1/2, and 1/4 kop)

 

The other is 1840 spb (3 spb, 2 spb, 1 spb, 1/2 spb and possibly 1/4 no mint mark)

 

I will try to post pictures of 2 different 1/4 spm for explanation and comparison.

[BKB]

averse

[BKB]

another -- this one is not proof

[BKB]

averse

[gxseries]

Pardon me, I must be taking some kind of strong medication at the moment

 

Back to the question of 1849, if you realized, 1849 is the very year the design was changed completely. If you looked at the rarity of them, most of them are either uncommon, or probably VERY RARE in Uzedenikov. Most coins before that time were either struck in Sestroretsk, Ekaterinburg, and St. Petersburg, but in the last few years were puzzling. From 1845-1847, most coins were struck in Sestroretsk and in 1848, in Warsaw.

 

It seemed that Russia wanted the Warsaw mint to mint all of the copper coins while St. Petersburg mint the silver and gold coins. But my assumption is that the dies must have arrived late in Warsaw, and some major hiccups must have occured, i.e. the design of the dies were only prepared late and St Petersburg must have taken emergency measures of striking examples of such coins.

 

This early SPB series is said to be extremely rare simply as I guess, emergency issues as SPB only took full control of minting copper coins only in 1867. Who knows if they are minted in 1849 or so. Technically speaking, if the coin was struck one year later, it IS considered as novodel. Imagine this, if the dies were prepared only in December, and the striking continued on till the end of January, half of the batch alone are considered to be novodels! Cruel as it seems, but that's the broad defination of what a novodel can be.

 

BUT this is what I am speculating. What you have are really pretty examples, so if you are going to purchase any, regardless if they are to be labelled as novodels or not, be prepared to pay top dollars!

 

The 1840 examples are relatively easy as it seems all denominations without a mintmark are considered as novodels.

[BKB]

gxseries, thank you for your speculations. And, please lay off that medication you are taking. If you come across anything written on point, please let me know. The fact is I have a whole bunch of these and I am only missing 1 kop to complete an spm set. Now I am trying to figure out the difference.

 

The story with 1840 spb, they are also listed as originals and as novodels. Thus, there are novodels with SPB mintmark, and without any mint mark (extremely rare).

[gxseries]

I'm not too sure what catalogue you got there, but with the current second edition of Uzedenikov that I got here, there seems to be nothing mentioned about novodel SPB coins, although it seems that they are fairly scarce.

[BKB]

I'm not too sure what catalogue you got there, but with the current second edition of Uzedenikov that I got here, there seems to be nothing mentioned about novodel SPB coins, although it seems that they are fairly scarce.

 

What books I use on copper... let see:

 

Book that list novodels for 1840 spb's:

 

Wladimir Bitkin "Composite Catalogue of Russian Coins"

 

If you want to argue that there are no novodels for 1840 spb -- who am I to argue I almost completed the set. I am only missing 1 coin.

[grivna1726]

What books I use on copper... let see:

 

Book that list novodels for 1840 spb's:

 

Wladimir Bitkin "Composite Catalogue of Russian Coins"

 

If you want to argue that there are no novodels for 1840 spb -- who am I to argue    I almost completed the set.  I am only missing 1 coin. 

 

BKB, first, welcome to CoinPeople!

 

I am intrigued by your 1840 СПБ novodel set and checked my references.

 

The 1840 СПБ novodels are not listed by Uzdenikov.

 

Nor are they listed by Brekke.

 

Nor are they listed by the Grand Duke.

 

I also checked my copy of Bitkin (Kiev, 2000 edition) but was unable to find the 1840 СПБ novodels listed there.

 

Given the apparent extreme rarity of these coins, I'd appreciate it if you would please post clear photos or scans of your 1840 СПБ novodels and the relevant page(s) from Bitkin listing them.

 

Thank you.

[BKB]

Hi, thank you!

 

I did not say that I have novodels. I said that I have an almost complete set of 1840spb (less 3 kop) Now, if there are no novodels, then my coins must be originals. And I want them to be original.

 

Bitkin 2 (the 2 volume edition) lists novodels for 1840 spb. The rarity is the same. However, I would still prefer original coins.

 

Thus, that is why I will not argue with the claim that there are no novodels

[grivna1726]

Hi, thank you!

 

I did not say that I have novodels.  I said that I have an almost complete set of 1840spb (less 3 kop)  Now, if there are no novodels, then my coins must be originals.  And I want them to be original.

 

Sorry, my misunderstanding. I thought you were saying that you had a nearly complete set of 1840 СПБ novodels. The originals all seem to be scarce to rare, apparently patterns not released to circulation. The only 1840 copper novodels I can find listed in my references are without mintmark (struck for the 1870 Industrial Fair) and the 1840 СМ novodels.

 

Bitkin 2 (the 2 volume edition) lists novodels for 1840 spb.  The rarity is the same.  However, I would still prefer original coins.

 

Thus, that is why I will not argue with the claim that there are no novodels 

 

Would it be possible for you to post pictures of the listings for the 1840 СПБ novodels in Bitkin 2 (I have only Bitkin 1)?

 

I am very curious where Bitkin got the information concerning the existence of these 1840 СПБ novodels, given that none of the other accepted authorities seem to know anything about them. They don't seem to be listed in the 2000 (first) edition of his book, so I think they must be a recent discovery. I don't recall hearing about these before, but maybe I'm just forgetful or managed to somehow miss the news of their discovery.

[BKB]

If you give me your email, I will send you a picture of the page from Bitkin.

[grivna1726]

If you give me your email, I will send you a picture of the page from Bitkin.

 

I can be reached at this address: grivna1726x@gmail.com (remove the "x" from the address to email me).

 

Thank you.

[WCO]

Old post, but may be someone is still interested.

 

I saw in some catalogues (like parts of Hesselgesser collection) 1840 spb patterns graded as Mint State. I also had one myself a few years back (see the picture). However, it was a good Proof inside the NGC holder and I re-graded it PF-63 instead of MS-63 after prompt cleaning. I also had several 1840 coins graded as Proofs from the beginning. I am still not sure if 1840 coins exist in MS since all I've seen so far turned out to be a Proof.

 

I have a theory how 1840 Novodels got listed in a Bitkin book.

 

Since by mistake some of the pieces were graded in sales catalogs or by NGC/PCGS as MS it made people to believe there are Novodels of 1840 patterns in existence. This is how it gotten into Bitkin catalogue I guess. He just saw records from auction catalogs or may be even real coins by mistake graded as MS and believed...

 

About 1849 coins. Originals were Proof only and bronzed. I also do not know that it is said anywhere in a book or printed material (or may be it is, just I have no idea) but there are original Patterns in Russian State Historical Museum and may be checked to verify. All 1849 Mint State pattern coins are definitely Novodels.

 

WCO