one-kuna

Some clarification - Diakov does not list medals by metal. If he thinks that some medal in some metal is more than just common, he simply expresses his opinion on the rarity of that medal in that metal. The assumption is that medal might exist in all metals used for striking medals.

 

thank you for very interesting clarification

Some clarification - Diakov does not list medals by metal. If he thinks that some medal in some metal is more than just common, he simply expresses his opinion on the rarity of that medal in that metal. The assumption is that medal might exist in all metals used for striking medals.

 

 

I have not seen the new book yet, by I thought that Bitkin's new book is only on award medals for wear.

 

*then what all AR AE AG means in his catalogs after each medal?

*Bitkin new book for wear award only, as review on this book says.

Does Diakov distinguish the 2 variants (the original and the copy) or do they both go under Diakov #105?

 

I’m curious, because I’ve seen several instances of the Ivanov copy, on auction sites, and it appears that Diakov ranks it as R1, did not find listings for the original yet. So does the same R1 apply to the original medal?

 

First of all it is under Diakov #97 in volume 2 covering period 1725-1796.

Original dies is listed under #97.1 and copied dies under #97.2 accordingly.

As I saw your image, it is a medal from a white metal. And both are them (white metal) are NOT listed by Diakov.

I'm not a medal collector. But once in a while I pick something up for fun. Here's my new acquisition, a medal struck to commemorate the birth of Pavel Petrovich:

 

http://www.omnicoin.com/coin_view_enlarge.aspx?id=962143

 

I found some references to a similar medal:

 

http://www.numismat-invest.ru/view_img.php...img2=173712.gif

 

"This medal is a later restrike (late 18th - 19th century) of the medal struck during the reign of Catherine the Great to commemorate the birth of Pavel Petrovich (future Paul I). Original die-stamps were executed by Georg Christian Waechter and Samoila Yudin. The die-stamps for this medal were copied by Samoila Yudin and Timofei Ivanov. Beneath bust truncation: TIMOFEI IVANOV. Diakov#105.3(R1), Smirnov.238"

 

My medal is signed by Waechter not Ivanov, so mine must be the original. I'm curious as to what the Medal references have to say about this medal. Thanks in advance!

 

Diakov reference says that Original dies were executed by Weaxter/ Yudin.

Copied dies are by Ivanov/ Yudin.

1. Красный (Китайский) монетный двор в Москве у Воскресенских ворот

Krasniy / Red (Kitayskiy) mint in Moscow next to Voskresenskiy Gate

Mintmark: КД, ММД, ММ

1697-1797

2. Кадашевский (Хамовный, Замоскворецкий, Военно-морской, Адмиралтейский) монетный двор в Москве в Кадашевской слободе

Kadashevskiy (Hamovniy, Zamoskvoretskiy, Naval-Navy, Admiralty) mint in Moscow in Kadashevskiy sloboda

Mintmark: МД, МДЗ, ММ, М, Москва

1701-1737

3. Набережный медный монетный двор в Москве на территории Кремля

Naberezhniy copper mint in Moscow on Kremlin territory

Mintmark: НД, НДЗ, НДД

1699-1727

4. Новый денежный двор в Москве на Красной площади в здании бывшего Земского приказа

The New mint in Moscow on Red Square, in former building of Zemskoy Prikaz

Mintmark: none

1700-1717

5. Петербургский монетный двор в Петропавловской крепости

Peterburg mint in the Peter-Paul fortress

Mintmark: СПБ, СПМ, СП, СМ

1724-1728,

1738-1799,

1807-1917

6. Екатеринбургский монетный двор в Екатеринбурге

Ekaterinburg mint in Ekaterinburg

Mintmark: EM

1727-1876

7. Сестрорецкий монетный двор на Сестрорецких оружейных заводах

Sestroretsk mint at Sestroretsk Armoury plants

Mintmark: CM

1757-1778

8. Сузунский (Барнаульский) монетный двор на Нижне-Сузунском медеплавильном заводе в посёлке Сузун

Suzun (Barnaul) mint at Nizhniy Suzun copper-melt plant in village Suzun

Mintmark: КМ, СМ

1766-1847

9. Таврический монетный двор в пригороде Феодосии - Ташлыке

Tauric mint in Feodosiya's visinity - Tashlyk

Mintmark: TM

1787-1788

10. Аннинский монетный двор на базе Бабкинского медеплавильного завода в селе Аннинском Пермской губернии

Anninsk mint based on Babkinskiy copper-melt plant in Anninsk village of Perm province

Mintmark: AM

1789-1798

11. Колпинский (Ижорский) монетный двор на базе Адмиралтейских заводов в селе Колпино

Kolpino mint based on Admiralty plants in village Kolpino

Mintmark: KM, ИМ

1810-1821

1840-1844

12. Тифлисский монетный двор в Тифлисе (ныне Тбилиси) в помещении старых царских бань

Tiflis mint in Tiflis (now Tbilisi) in old tzars bath-house facilitity

Mintmark: ტფილისი

1804-1834

13. Варшавский монетный двор в Варшаве

Warsaw mint in Warsaw

Mintmark: MW, BM

1816-1864

14. Гельсингфорсский монетный двор в Гельсингфорсе (ныне Хельсинки)

Helsingfors mint in Helsingfors (now Helsinki)

Mintmark: none

1763-1917

15. Временный монетный двор - плащильная мельница в Москве на реке Яузе

Temporary mint at flatting mill on Yauza river in Moscow

Mintmark: none

1728-1729,

1734-1736

16. Временный "Коллежский" монетный двор в Петербурге на Московской стороне вблизи Литейного двора

Temporary mint College in Peterburg on Moscow side next to Foundry yard

Mintmark: did not have its own, instead used СПБ

1724-1726

17. Временный монетный двор в бывших палатах кн. Прозоровского в Петербурге на Московской стороне

Temporary mint in former palaces of prince Prozorovskiy on Moscow side in Peterburg

Mintmark: none

1736-1737

18. Временный монетный двор в Нижнем Новгороде в архиерейском доме, переданного позже Приказу общественного призрения

Temporary mint in Nizhniy Novgorod at archbishop house, transferred later to the Order of the public charity

Mintmark: did not have its own, instead used EM

1762,

1796-1797

19. Временный монетный двор в Ярославле, в бывшем доме ссыльного герцога Э.И Бирона

Temporary mint in Yaroslavl', in former house of the exciled Grand Duke Biron

Mintmark: none

1762

20. Временный монетный двор в Полоцке

Temporary mint in Polotsk

Mintmark: none

1762

21. Временный монетный двор в с. Поречье Смоленской губернии

Temporary mint in village Porechie of Slolensk province

Mintmark: none

1762

22. Временный монетный двор в Архангельске

Temporary mint in Arkhangel'sk

Mintmark: none

1762

23. Временный Банковский монетный двор в Петербурге в здании Ассигнационного банка

Temporary Bank mint in Peterburg at the building of Assignat bank

Mintmark: did not have its own, instead used CM, СП, СПБ

1799-1805

24. Завод по обработке цветных металлов Розенкранца в Петербурге

The Rozenkranz plant of color metals in Petersburg

Mintmark: did not have its own, instead used СПБ

1899-1901

25. Кенигсбергский монетный двор (Пруссия)

Koenigsberg mint (Prussia)

Mintmark: none

1759-1761

26. Частный монетный двор в поместье Садогура (княжество Молдова)

Private mint in Sadogura estate (Moldova principality)

Mintmark: S

1771-1774

27. Авестский монетный двор в г. Авеста (Швеция)

Avesta mint in Avesta (Sweden)

Mintmark: did not have its own, instead used EM

1788

28. Стокгольмский монетный двор (Швеция)

Stockholm mint (Sweden)

Mintmark: none

1863

29. Страсбургский монетный двор (Франция)

Strasbourg mint (France)

Mintmark: did not have its own, instead used СПБ

1861

31. Парижский монетный двор (Франция)

Paris mint (France)

Mintmark: "star" on its edge

1861,

1896-1899

32. Брюссельский монетный двор (Бельгия)

Brussel mint (Belgium)

Mintmark:" two birds", "star and bird" and "two stars" on its edge

1863,

1877,

1897-1899

33. Бирмингемский монетный двор (Великобритания)

Birmingham mint (Great Britain)

Mintmark: did not have its own, instead used СПБ

1896-1898

34. Осакский монетный двор (Япония)

Osaka mint (Japan)

Mintmarl: none

1916

35. Берлинский монетный двор (Германия)

Berlin mint (Germany)

Mintmark: none

1916

36. Гамбургский монетный двор (Германия)

Gamburg mint (Germany)

Mintmark: none

1916

37. Мангеймский монетный двор (Германия)

Mannheim mint (Germany)

Mintmark: none

1753

 

Reference used:

Bitkin V V Composite catalog of Russian coins, 2003.

Brekke B F Copper coinage of Imperial Russia, 1977

Julian R W Russian silver coinage 1796-1917, 1993

Severin H Silver coins of Imperial Russia, Moscow reprint, 2006

Uzdenikov VV Russian coins 1700-1917, 2nd & 3rd editions, 1992, 2004

Uzdenikov VV Volume of Mints production of Russian coins, 1995.

One-kuna posted his original message to the fakes forum without any evidence

that the piece in question is bad. The presumption of genuineness from a reputable

seller is assumed unless proven otherwise. I see nothing in the photograph of this

piece that causes me to question it.

 

RWJ

 

i posted some known, credible facts from the russian numismatic history writen by Smirnov and Spasskiy, and bunch of others, which have never mentioned and confirmed existence of gold piece...

 

some russian experts say that by looking at a picture only is not enough guarantee to confirm that it is genuine... and they are right...

 

one of them immediately stated that this medal was recently made in Zelenograd, Russia, and another one noted that this medal would be made much better in Kiev...

 

to be continued...

There is merit in your comments and previously unknown examples of rarities do surface occasionally, but it seems reasonable to question how it has remained completely unknown until now and where it has been all these years.

 

that is right - completely unknown in all metals but silver...

 

especially those cheap pieces in lead and tin (RWJ mentioned earlier), they should have been showed up somewhere for so many years, where are they...

according above version is that a piece was ordered by grand duke sometime ago about 1888 at Vienna mint and since that time (auctioning now as apparently unique) never appeared to a public and medal fields was left unpolished since and grand duke never presented such gold medal to the Alexander III, but for him gave him a jeton, not a medal with unpolished fields!

does anyone can demonstrate an example of such valuable gold piece among russian medals with same finish at that time?

so far I do not see any creditible evidences from you that a medal is genuie, just general review and possible imagination...

my real facts are not discussed straight...

for example, what could you say about the historical fact that a jeton was given to Alexander III when he visited and observed grand duke collection, didn't he deserve to get a gold medal? Alexander III Romanov was given a little tiny jeton only?...that is it?...who can believe in that?...the real fact (explanation) of that is that there was no medal in gold - that is a fact!...

I think that you do not understand the meaning of the Staraya Moneta work. Kopylov,

as I understand the matter, was offering an older medal for sale in connection with the

article. There was no reason to mention a gold medal or trial strikes.

 

The Giel medals, on the other hand, were a public offering, an entirely different matter.

 

The medal dies would have been kept at the Mint subject to orders from the Grand Duke.

 

RWJ

article was published in number 4 an 5, sale's ad in number 7 and has no direct connections with its article...

what I do understand is that above imaginations on possible existence of a gold piece are imaginations only...

to be continued...

The fact that different finishes exist for a coin or medal depends upon

what was ordered at the time the piece was made. The Paris Mint, for

example, made proof coins in a variety of finishes. The vignettes and fields

are often treated in a different manner. Today we expect matte finishes for the

vignettes and brilliant for the fields but this is not always the case as the process

is sometimes reversed, as on recent U.S. bullion pieces.

 

RWJ

 

according above version is that a piece was ordered by grand duke sometime ago about 1888 at Vienna mint and since that time (auctioning now as apparently unique) never appeared to a public and medal fields was left unpolished since and grand duke never presented such gold medal to the Alexander III, but for him gave him a jeton, not a medal with unpolished fields!

does anyone can demonstrate an example of such valuable gold piece among russian medals with same finish at that time?

The striking of medals from the Grand Duke’s dies was a private matter and I see no problem

with the existence of one or more gold medals. It is also likely that trial strikes existed (or still do)

in lead and tin. The Grand Duke was, after all, a collector and would have had specimens in

various metals struck for his personal holdings.

 

The Grand Duke’s home in St. Petersburg was looted by mobs when the Bolsheviks seized power

and many of his possessions, such as books and papers, were simply thrown into the street. It takes

little imagination to think that his stock of medals was stolen at that time.

 

RWJ

 

yes, dies were in grand duke possession, but please, if this gold medal was so valuable to him (as per auction consignor), why he did not pack it with its dies (or at list his numismatic comissioner Mokhrovskyi) with the rest of coins and medals, even he was being sent to the war to observe the russian army (1914)...

 

For example, Giel's jetons were advertised and sold in different variants in Staraya Moneta: aluminum, green copper, yellow copper, dark copper, gold-like, silver-like, etc,, but Visitor medal in silver only...

 

Also there was a comprehensive article on grand duke Visitor medal issue and its dies in Staraya Moneta, moreover, a silver medal was offered for sale at 15 rubles through Staraya Moneta (1910, #7), since that time neither Kopylov over 40 numismatic auctions before 1918 or any other numismatic dealers, collectors and periodics /literature have never mentioned on such gold piece...(neither lead and tin and others)...

The striking of medals from the Grand Duke’s dies was a private matter and I see no problem

with the existence of one or more gold medals. It is also likely that trial strikes existed (or still do)

in lead and tin. The Grand Duke was, after all, a collector and would have had specimens in

various metals struck for his personal holdings.

 

The Grand Duke’s home in St. Petersburg was looted by mobs when the Bolsheviks seized power

and many of his possessions, such as books and papers, were simply thrown into the street. It takes

little imagination to think that his stock of medals was stolen at that time.

 

RWJ

 

how would you explain a fact that the all relief elements like horseman and such are in excellent condition but fields are left unpolished...gold medal dated 1888...

With the estimate $30000 this unknown in gold up to today medal of the grand duke Georgii Mikhailovich to the VISITOR was sold for $40000 on recent New York sale auction XXI, lot 1327. Some prospective buyers who really wanted such medals did not buy it due to medal provenance and its condition. However some folks stated that it was genuine. Some top experts in russian numismatics like Kopylov, Smirnov, Spasskij, etc., should have known the fact of existence of gold medal...but it was never published. The silver medals were given to the persons who visited and observed the grand duke collection of russian coins and medals, and these silver medals are known being sold at auctions from 1910 up to 2008, but gold?