sigistenz
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Posts posted by sigistenz
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Yes indeed - I did not know. Thank you.
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Eugene, if the date is 1788 (I can't tell from the pictures) it cannot be MM. The 1788MM 2 kopeks had the MMs placed at the sides of the horse. As a mint mark I recognize only the 2nd letter, which is an M under the horse. In 1788 only the 1788TM 2 kopeks had the M under the horse. Paul's recoinage yielded 2 kopeks with 1793EM and no other 2 Kopek dates. If your coin is dated 1788, it is not a Paulian reoverstrike.
Your coin deserves being presented here with good pictures when you have the time.
Thank you, regards, Sigi
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4 Kopecks of Paul I recoined back into Catherine II 2 Kopecks coins by Paul I
Could you post better pictures of this one, please? I am not sure about the date and the mint.
I wish you a happy new year with -of course- many, many coinzzzzz. Sigi
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The official novodels were struck in small numbers with special care.
Why then the 4 cuts in the die?
And could there have occured weak areas of the surrounding pearls ??
Sigi
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Happy New Year, dear coin friends! I hope you will be happy.
In 2012 I could not add much to my collection - 2 eagle variants of my 5kop1778EM/1779EM
and 3 upgradings, one of which see below.
Happy hunting, Sigi
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About 2 weeks ago I posted poor cellphone pictures of the coin above - a 5kop1781С.ПМ only known as a novodel. As the novodels were struck on new planchets (and did not circulate), the coin above obviously is NOT a novodel . Could there have been 1781 business strikes - hitherto unknown?
Well, I got the owner to send me the coin for inspection. See below a close up of the 81 of the date. The 1 appears to have seen much less circulation than the 8. Tooling is evident at both sides of the 1. The sharp edges of the 1 reveal that it must be more recent than the worn down 8. This means that the 1 was cut not into the die but on the coin itself = FAKE .
Sigi
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Agreed with BKB - you would think someone with a rather rare coin would have funds to buy a proper camera. Probably enough to buy a whole camera shop (?)
Would be interested to see a better photo.
Right, the numismatist has been busy with Russian coins for 50 years, but now he is very old, in poor shape, not able to photograph a coin, his name is nearly forgotten (his neighbor made the picture). We have been friends for 40 years. I'm urging him to send me the coin for inspection. But even packing and shipping is difficult for him. He promised to try. Once I have the coin, I'll be back with better pictures.
Sigi
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Congratulations, Alex
- this variant is indeed difficult.Sigi
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Done.
One of the experts on copper, said that there is something similar in the Smithsonian (not the same coin). In his opinion it (the Smithsonian coin) is an old antiquarian forgery.
Hi Alex, thank you for your effort - as far as I can understand the outcome it is pretty disappointing. As it seems people there don't take the thread serious.
For them it is clear that the last digit is altered --> fake - full stop. Nobody cares about the novodel with its altered date, nobody shows and discusses pictures, nobody gets curious about -why 1781-. They don't have anybody like Steve, Josh, Alex, Hisa, Eugene.
Too bad - Sigi
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Good job Sigi!
Same coin. Indeed, it did not sell in Gorny 109. From the images and the fact that it didn't sell after buyers got to see it first hand means I'd say altered date with 99.9% probability.
That was 11 years ago, the market was not yet as transparent (no internet viewing around the world). As the novodels were struck with altered dies (1781/?8), why not a previous business strike with altered dies? To make this broad 1 out of an 8 on the coin seems pretty difficult.
Another question is Josh's: Why a 1781SPM novodel? Back dated from 1788. Out of the blue? Or to satisfy some important collectioner's wish, who had heard of a 5kop1781SPM? This is a fascinating thing. Let's see what the Russian forums have to say. Thank you, Steve, best, Sigi
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I could ask on a couple of forums if you like.
That would be great, Alex! Please do.
Thank you, Sigi
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Well...my Gorny's from that time are all buried in storage beneath crates of other catalogs which keep arriving and piling up
I'd guess Sale 27, from 1984, but I could be wrong. If anyone has a copy handy, please take a look.
Hi Steve, congrats! Gorny was right, but it was Gorny 109 of April 2001. See scan below. I think the coin did not sell then, but will make sure.
As the "7" of 1781 differs, these are not the novodel dies. Note that the 1781 novodel has a recut date (1781/8), maybe the funny first 8 is also recut? As has been questioned before, what was the reason to recut a novodel's date BACK to a year where no business coins exist? Or - maybe there were very, very few business 5kop1781СПМ struck, some important collector got aware and wanted it? It could be an explantion for this strange novodel? This question would maybe best be posed in a Russian forum, where many experts participate. But my Russian is not sufficient. -Sigi-
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This reminded me that I had a similarly amazing picture for Sigi. Found it on some russian forum:
Thank you for showing - this die combination coin exists. Wolmar 2012 catalog values it $3500/XF. But at an auction it could fetch much more.
Sigi
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My first thought would be an altered date. The 1 digits dont seem quite the same in this photo.
Have you seen the coin in person?
The 1781 novodels have a visibly recut date (1781/8). With the coin shown above no alteration is visible. Yes, he showed me the coin abt. 10-15 years ago but then I was not yet specialized in the series. Not being extremely fine or AU, I gave it no second glance.
Sigi
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The 5kop1781СПМ is only known as a novodel. An expert oldtimer who has been 40-50 years in Russian coins sent me the (poor cellphone) pictures of this coin of his.
These are not the novodel dies.
The novodels were not overstrikes.
And they did not circulate.
What do the experts make out of this?Thank you, Sigi
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My new find 1764 5 Kopeck MM mint re-coined from 1762 10 kopeck.
Found in Italy! Are the over-strikes of this mint common? They probably are...
I think I am starting to catch Sigi's 5 kopeck fever... In Sigi's collection there is a much better example.Well, I'm excited, anyway!
Hi Eugene, take warning - it may become an addiction
Some dates of the MM 5 kopecks are easy, like 1764, others are difficult to impossible.
There are many variants, Yusupov lists 10 variants for 1764MM alone, each valued $10/VF (will send PM).
Take care, Sigi
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That is very important information. There must be an inimaginable wealth of such material in Russia, allowing people to compare to such extent.
Thank you Eugene for sharing
.Sigi
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Eugene, that is becoming very interesting
I had not gone into that depth so far.I see now that, yes indeed, what you found is a rare variant and you got it cheap, congratulations. Brekke had just one 5kop1764CM in his collection, it happens to be your type (as to ribbon and small mintmark) but with straight M.
The Aalborg copper collection (sold in 4 sections in Copenhagen as Russia I, II, III and IV a few year ago) contained also only one 5kop1764CM, ribbon like yours, small CM, M slanting but with the C somewhat more remote from the eagle's tail. Yusupov lists 4 variants of the 5kop1764CM.
As I am not sure about copyright, I'll send you a PM.
Happy hunting! Sigi
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Hi Eugene, small letters are normal for 1764. Note that on your 2nd link the "CM" mintmark is recut from "СПМ".
That's why the "C" is so far to the left. In my collection (link below) is a similar 1764CM
Sigi
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This is either the same coin or.... two identical fakes.
Sigi
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$1000 would be enough - tell him that the edge is terrible
Sigi
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Hi, to me the coin looks convincing
Sure it is a common variant (Bitkin 19) but it is overall well struck, host coin well visible, nice color, very close to be a pleasant coin. The grade is not a low at all - but low enough to not be fake. To be safe, take it in the hand, watch the edge, too. At the time being it is well worth $1000 and I don't see why prices should go down. The coin is not too rare but it is popular and in demand. This one is well over average.Sigi
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My copper best
Amazing, Davide !!
What do the experts make out of this?
I think I am starting to catch Sigi's 5 kopeck fever... In Sigi's collection there is a much better example.
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BKB Always Warns Against Overstrikes...
in Russian Coin Forums
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It is true that one has to be more and more alert
but I also think that they are astonishingly similar but not alike.
Compare the 64 of the date.
Sigi
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