"copper" eagle on silver rouble 1760

[extant4cell]

This is a classical known Dasier eagle with a kind of a cut in the right wing (which looks like an imperfection that gives wing some movement momentum) and "flame" patterns inside the wings:

I call it a "silver" Dasier eagle, as it first appeared on roubles in 1757.

In 1758 it also appears on the first SPM/SM pyataks:

...and became a standard eagle for the whole series of 5 kopecks, that was modified during pyataks' production on EM and MM to their liking.
Sestroretsk kept true to the shape of a silver eagle having a benefit of SPM making not only instrument of silver roubles, but also instrument for SM pyataks. At least this was true for the first half of 1758 production year on SM, but in a second part Desier eagle appears with a "balanced" right wing on SM pyataks:

I call this variant of Dasier eagle - a "copper" eagle, as it first appears on copper coins. Well, in fact, I thought that it ONLY appeared on copper SM pyataks in 1758 at that's it, as I couldn't find it on 1757, 1758 and 1759 roubles. Frankly, after looking through 1759 roubles I gave up. Today I noticed that the "copper" Dasier eagle with a balanced right wing is not only found on Sestroretsk pyataks, but also makes a very short lived appearance on silver roubles in 1760:

It has a slightly different shape of the right wing compare to a "copper" Dasier eagle, so it is not the same eagle per say, however the idea is the same - to have both wings looking balanced. I found this amusing and thought to share this with you. No doubt, as I am not a specialist in silver roubles, I was not the first one to notice this. When I voiced this finding to one of the Elizabeth silver roubles respectable specialists, he kindly mentioned to me that apparently there was an article by R.W. Julian in JRNS №88 "The St. Petersburg rubles of Timofei Ivanov 1757-1761".

Out of curiosity, it would be interesting to read that article. Can anyone share it with me, or where can I buy JRNS №88?

[sigistenz]

Conros and Wolmar catalogs list only one rouble type for 1760 (i.e. the common Dassier silver rouble eagle of the previous years).  For the 1761 rouble there is also just one entry,  depicted is the copper eagle.  Obviously, a few copper eagle roubles were already struck in (late) 1760. I got the complete set of JRNS journals on my attic. Will copy the Julian article the next days. Till then, Sigi

 

.

 

[extant4cell]

Hi Sigi, That would be wonderful!

For 1761 and the late 1760 variant, it's a different eagle, that we can call copper Dasier only in general outlined shape, but it looses the flaming pattern of the feathers.

Funny that many people miss that, but the flaming feathers inside the wings are the main attributes of Dasier eagle in order to call it that. In my mind I call Dasier eagle - a fire bird (of two heads). Perhaps, Dasier knew some of Russian (Slavic) folklore and made his eagle with flaming feathers on purpose. His magic definitely worked on me and I just fell in love with the original Dasier eagle (fire bird). In the folklore the magical fire bird is the object of a quest and a hero aims at getting it's tail feather, magical properties of which are not fully understood by him and often get him into trouble. You can see that on this 1760 coin, ironically, the tail feathers are already shorter... this eagle lost it's magical tail feather and the flaming wings have gone too... this Dasier eagle flames have been exhausted...  )))

The original Dasier "silver" eagle and it's modified "copper" variants are full of fire:





 

 

 

[sigistenz]

Hi Eugene,  thank you for the rectification. I did not know the firebird either. As promised I copied the JRNS article "THE ST.PETERSBURG RUBLES OF TIMOFEI IVANOV 1757-61. That was 10 pages in the journal, too much to enter here, I'm afraid. So I sent it to you as a PM. I WILL BE PLEASED TO SEND THE ARTICLE TO ALL INTERESTED COIN PEOPLE UPON REQUEST.

Sigi

 

.

 

[IgorS]

There was a follow up article by Bob Julian on the specifically late 1760 changes to the reverse die of the rouble. 

Unfortunately that issue of the JRNS was never published, as JRNS went on "hiatus".

Article mentions the changes to the right wing with an added notch - Ivanov most likely created a new hub for this part of the wing since original hub probably deteriorated 

 

Eugene I am curious who the expert is - is it Altair on SM?

 

[extant4cell]

Hi Igor, Spot on. I know Altair from about 2000s when I was on an old Russian forum, also from CFN and SM. We don't communicate much, as our interests rarely cross over, but he knows me from my modest publications in Petersburg Collector and CFN, and he helped me to acquire his publication in 2015 Numismatika on Dasier unknown rouble. I am aware he is collecting information and images of Elizabeth roubles for a catalogue now, so I naturally decided to consult with him when I notice 1760 Dasier eagle with balanced wings, hoping to make him aware of this fact. He already knew this and in turn made me aware of JRNS №88 article, which, as I can see (Sigi, thank you so much for a copy! still no mention of the inside wings' pattern!!!), also lists 1759 "copper" eagle on a rouble, that was sold by Monety i Medali auction. It shows a part of it's right wing, but the full image of that rouble is no where to be seen, unless someone has that catalog and happy to share (again, and in case it wasn't only listed there but presented with a photo). This is an intriguing picture of a rouble to see... All I can note, that Dasier "copper" eagles from SM pyataks and the ones on 1759 and 1760 are all different a little and that for roubles there were at least 3 different hubs (muster dies) with balanced wings' Dasier eagles.

[IgorS]

Bob Julian's article I mentioned above describes 3 dies for 1760 rouble reverse die. One with wing change and 2 with tail changes added in.

[extant4cell]

Now that we have a larger database of 1760 roubles, with nearly 120 images, it is easier to analyze. I can see 4 main different eagle variants. Dasier eagle types 1, 2 and 3 with differences mainly in the extend of the right wing repair and in rarity. No major tail changes seen in these varieties and they all retain flame-like pattern inside the wings. However, type 4 - major redesign (master hub or model redesign?) of the Dasier eagle, that in my mind kills its natural fire bird lines, flame and imperfections.  Basically type 4 is a new eagle for 1761, with new inside the wings' feather patterns, balanced wings and the tail and a new 5 gem crown. It's "too perfect" to be called Dasier's eagle and as well noted by Julian, it is a heraldic change - new type. Portrait side, looks like has 3 main hub variants, that I called here a, b and c, where the last letter "C" has different distance from the portrait.

1760 roubles based on eagle variants:

1) The "common" type with classic "silver" Dasier eagle (with notch in right wing), "M" looks far from the wing; I see it with portrait side made with 3 different hubs: a, b and c;

2) Rare type with balanced wings of "copper" Dasier eagle variant. Right wing has 1 additional feather to fill the gap in a notch a little. "M" looks like is close to the wing; I find it only with one portrait type "a", similar to 1a;

3) Rare type with balanced wings of "copper" Dasier eagle. Variant with 2 additional feathers added to right wing to fill the gap. "M" is touching the wing; I see it with portrait sides made with 2 different hubs: "b" and "c", similar to 1b and 1c, where the last letter "C" has different distance from the portrait.

4) New heraldic eagle - heavily modified Dasier eagle that has balanced wings and new pattern inside the wings (no longer has flame-like feathers) and I would not call it "copper" eagle as a lot has changed in this eagle's shape, not only a tail. This eagle, though based on Dasier eagle, should have it's own name as it is a major redesign of the master hub by Temofei Ivanov or another engraving master, for now it is mentioned as 1761 eagle type. Seeing with one portrait side type "c", similar to 1c and 3c. Also rare for this year.

1a)

1b)

1c)

2a)

 

3b) 

3c)

 

4c)   

images are from: https://www.m-dv.ru/monety-rossii-1700-1917/kid,12/mid,5/nid,22/types.html

I corrected this post a little, making relations to 3 main types of portrait hubs "a", "b" and "c" clearer.

[extant4cell]

More on the original portrait and eagle of Dassier is available in this little article, though would I write it today I would not include the 3 variants of 1757 pyataks. As I understand now they were introduced much later, after the reign of Elisaveta Petrovna and are nothing but fake. http://www.numistika.com/contributed/Skobtchenko - 2014 - Portraits of Elizabeth - Sestroretsk 5 kop 1758 - Russian Eagles by Dassier and Hedlinger.pdf