extant4cell Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted May 18, 2013 Report Share Posted May 18, 2013 is this coin same from certificate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted May 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2013 No idea. All three photos from the same sale on auction some 4 years ago. I didn't see any criminal there, but one person did, dividing the opinions. I still think it is a real coin, but kept these picture in my "questionable" archive. As I am adding picture of the fake coins to http://www.rnumis.com/rnumis_research_0.php?db_pgtyp=db_pgtyp_rf_gallery&rfsort=1 now, I came across this coin again, and would like to solve its authenticity once and for all. If there is interest to read 4 years old thread on one of than populated Russian forums, it's here: http://rucoin.ru/forum/index.php?showtopic=39941&mode=linear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted May 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2013 On CFN the opinion is that the coin is OK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted May 18, 2013 Report Share Posted May 18, 2013 i read rucoin thread - nobody said anything smart just bla bla bla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted May 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2013 I inclined to believe the official statement in the paper by Shiryakov. It is a real and interesting coin. The other interesting thing about it, as I was just told, that it is being for sale over 4 year on russian "ebay" molotok.ru ... It is somewhat a record. I didn't see it yet, but am told that the price is pretty astronomical. Â Here is for a comparison: Â Thank you for looking into it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted May 18, 2013 Report Share Posted May 18, 2013 Is this some kind of overdate? On both coins, it looks like something is under the "3" ... traces of a "1", maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted May 18, 2013 Report Share Posted May 18, 2013 Well spotted Bob. Could be! Most (13) of the images I have of the 1853BM don't show this, but 2 of them (Kuenker and WAG from 2009) do have a similar possible overdate.  Kuenker  WAG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsraghead Posted May 18, 2013 Report Share Posted May 18, 2013 I don't believe anybody would have thought of faking that detail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted May 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2013 It does feel a little fishy, but I don't believe it is fake. Overdate is possible, and not criminal, still a proper coin. Bobh and Steve, well spotted! It does look like overdate. Also the BM looks a little different from other 1853's. That explains why! Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted May 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2013 Could it be a Novodel? Giving the Shiryakov's comment that the surface is polished and that coins are in a really good state... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted May 19, 2013 Report Share Posted May 19, 2013 Could it be a Novodel? Giving the Shiryakov's comment that the surface is polished and that coins are in a really good state... I was also thinking of the novodel possibility. One aspect I find puzzling, though, is that the edges of the raised devices (letters, feathers, etc.) don't look quite as sharply struck as they do on the image of the other (darker) coin further up in this thread, although there are more traces of circulation on the darker coin (i.e. in the next-to-last post before this one, it is at the right of the lighter coin being discussed presently -- not the lower image of a coin in VF grade). The lighter-color coin looks uncirculated to me. I would expect the strike to appear much sharper as a result, especially if it were a specially prepared novodel -- even if original dies were used. But this might be just a difference in lighting and/or focus. One would have to be able to see the real coin in order to make a definite statement about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted May 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2013 The Shiryakov report says that it has protective, preserving cover. This may smudge the image. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted May 19, 2013 Report Share Posted May 19, 2013 The Shiryakov report says that it has protective, preserving cover. This may smudge the image. Lacquer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted May 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2013 Mastic film... protects it. Don't ask me why they did it. Most collectors will not like that. I don't like this sort of artificial protection, although there are same examples of ancient coins that may need to use it, so I keep a bottle clear coin protective product in my box as well. I wouldn't use it on any of my Russian coins though, it would ruin the look. I have maybe 2-3 coins with this protection that I bough like that at some stage, it ruins the look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted May 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2013 On Russian forum some believe that it may be not an overdate, but a stamp crack, because the 1 would be too far away. I doubted that and made this little image combination that shows that one of "1"s edges should be exactly where the line in "3" is visible. I'll go with you on this one. The idea of it being a novodel made with original date re-cut stamps was also not supported there. I will not insist on that. Here it is: Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsraghead Posted May 19, 2013 Report Share Posted May 19, 2013 I'll be, they don't come close to matching Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted May 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2013 I am not saying that it's the same stamp, I am showing that the line inside 3 in a date 1853 is exactly were one side of 1 was in 1851... That is to support that re-cut from a different 1851 stamp to 1853 is possible and even most probable as the chance of splitting the die in this spot would be so remote, as for me to jump out of bed barefooted and land right inside my work shoes bypassing my slippers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsraghead Posted May 19, 2013 Report Share Posted May 19, 2013 Oh, I misunderstood,sorry. :-( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actelios Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 maybe if you post a bigger photo more readable, someone could translate what is stated there .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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