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Breaking news: next generation of fakes.


Timofei
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Hello, all,

 

I would like to have opinions about the price of this rouble, what a 'fair market price' would be. It has full "cartweel" luster.

Thanks.

 

IMG_4174.jpg

IMG_4175.jpg

:drool:

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After MiM auction yesterday's performance, it is hard to give prices (not that it was easy before).

You have a great looking common coin. Great looking makes it less common, but still. I checked NGC Census and I see tha 1764 had the most roubles graded - 14 (1774 has the same number).

In MS there are 3 coins - 61, 62, and 64. Your coin should be graded (the picture is too small, but it seems pretty impressive). I have no idea what the price should be, by my guesstimate puts it at $5000+. Also, it is investor's coin, not collector's, if you want the highest price.

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After MiM auction yesterday's performance, it is hard to give prices (not that it was easy before).

You have a great looking common coin. Great looking makes it less common, but still. I checked NGC Census and I see tha 1764 had the most roubles graded - 14 (1774 has the same number).

In MS there are 3 coins - 61, 62, and 64. Your coin should be graded (the picture is too small, but it seems pretty impressive). I have no idea what the price should be, by my guesstimate puts it at $5000+. Also, it is investor's coin, not collector's, if you want the highest price.

 

Dear Igor, Dear one-kuna,

First of all, please accept my sincere apologies that I started this thread in such dramatic manner. I hope you will not blame me for that as there is big reason:

 

This coin is fake, and I purchased it (with some other pieces, pics are below) for 4000 roubles each (US $130) in Moscow club. I did not make any image editing software tricks, more to that - when I saw it in other's hands I was sure it was a good coin, because of its EXTREMELY CONVINCING 18th CENTURY CARTWEEL LUSTER.

It is made of high purity silver and the market will be flooded with these in the next future. I personally saw Poltinas of 1762 and 1778, roubles of Catherine and Elisabeth (common dates). I hear Peter 1 roubles are very convincing too, the list of dates is unknown, but people say there are plenty for each emperor and they will be coming. I suspect that dozens of these are already being shipped all over Russia, being artificially downgraded and toned, 'metal-detected' in hoards. I do not know how long they are there, but we are not talking about years here. I am affraid some may be already slabbed and will appear on eBay. There are some minor points telling the coin is fake, but I suppose they will be improved too. Reeded edge, though not 100% perfect, is impressive. Lettered edge still needs some improvement. The pieces I have do have strange shine on the portrait but the field is near perfect. I am sure that with some knowledge of image editing one can make good picture which will deceipt even an experienced collector shopping on-line.

These fakes do have metal-flow lines and together with this luster they make next generation of fakes. As far as I know Numismatic section of State Historical Museum (Mr. Shiryakov) already got the samples. Each coin repeats imperfectins of the originally copied coin. Fellow collectors I talked were astonished after seing this type of fake, so am I. I have freshly made pieces with no after-work, so I can see all small points without mistake, but with minor manipulations it maybe very hard to tell. Do not get me wrong - the most difficult thing for counterfeiters is to resemble the luster and make good edge. The luster is the upmost detail which counterfeitors have failed 100% of cases so far. But with this piece in hands I think the luster test becomes or may become, unfortunately, less significant (

 

Of course, I will be posting better pictures and I will try to make some under microscope. I hope that RW Julian will include this info into "Update on fakes" in the next Newsletter.

 

I use this opportunity to inform that we will be also discussing these fakes on http://staraya-moneta.ru/forum/ website, where we created English-language part for those who do not speak Russian. Anyway (sorry to those who frequent both web-forums), I will be crossposting images and new info here and there, so that Coinpeople would be able to tell this fakes too.

 

IMG_4178.jpgIMG_4179.jpg

IMG_4177.jpgIMG_4176.jpg

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Dear Timofei,

Thank you for posting these pictures and telling us about these fakes.

You had me fooled and I thought you just wanted a western veiw on the value of a great coin you had, knowing your taste in coins.

As per your description, I am glad these are not dangerous enough, yet. But who knows what the future will bring. :confus:

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Dear Timofei,

Thank you for posting these pictures and telling us about these fakes.

You had me fooled and I thought you just wanted a western veiw on the value of a great coin you had, knowing your taste in coins.

As per your description, I am glad these are not dangerous enough, yet. But who knows what the future will bring. :confus:

 

Igor, beleive me, I did was fooled when I saw it. I did not have a magnifing glass with me and with poor room light I thought it was a perfect MS coin, freshly brought 'from the fields' after discovering a new hoard. I do think they are dangerous enough already as they are, so what to speak about improvements!

 

Again I do apologise to you that I may fooled viewers with this picture! The goal is to keep people informed.

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Igor, beleive me, I did was fooled when I saw it. I did not have a magnifing glass with me and with poor room light I thought it was a perfect MS coin, freshly brought 'from the fields' after discovering a new hoard. I do think they are dangerous enough already as they are, so what to speak about improvements!

 

Again I do apologise to you that I may fooled viewers with this picture! The goal is to keep people informed.

 

Thank you very much for posting these images, Timofei.

 

And thank you as well for creating the English language section on staraya-moneta.ru/forum/. As someone who struggles to understand Russian, that is particularly appreciated. :bthumbsup:

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Where is this english language section? I've looked all over the site and can't find the new section mentioned above :( anyone have a link?

I think this might be it. It seems it is not yet up and running, but there is a forum directory there.

 

http://staraya-moneta.ru/forum/forum41/

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As per info from Russian collectors these fakes are being 'digged out' already from hoards with green spots and dirt, thus passing the fakes as originals. Also there were rumors that lot 146 and 143 on last MiM auction #66 were from this new generation. I am quite sure that MiM people are very professional but at least this type of fake is already creating much talking and suspicion here in Moscow.

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The latest issue of The Numismatist in the counterfeit detection section on page 107 has an intro from Brian Silliman on Chinese Countefeits. He is announcing a series of articles to explore some recent and older Chinese counterfeits. As per Brian - "You will be surprised how, despite the hype, the fakes are not as difficult to spot as they have been made out to be". Seems collector's for a long time now brace when a new generation of couterfeits comes to light, but ones studied, they turn out to be less dangerous than anticipated. Yes, some collectors will be fulled by these and other counterfeits, so try not to be one of those collectors by staying informed. I am looking forward to this series of articles. I believe Brian is one of the NGC graders/authenticators.

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As per info from Russian collectors these fakes are being 'digged out' already from hoards with green spots and dirt, thus passing the fakes as originals. Also there were rumors that lot 146 and 143 on last MiM auction #66 were from this new generation. I am quite sure that MiM people are very professional but at least this type of fake is already creating much talking and suspicion here in Moscow.

in my opinion, "new generation" appeared a year or two ago, first just single pieces to test or probe the result of selling, then recently it goes as a large(?)production - not confirmed yet as a large :)

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Thank you very much for posting these images, Timofei.

 

And thank you as well for creating the English language section on staraya-moneta.ru/forum/. As someone who struggles to understand Russian, that is particularly appreciated. :bthumbsup:

 

If you use Google Chrome to surf it will give you the option to translate the pages you visit on the fly with one just click, or you can select always translate Russian etc. Well worth trying for people who visit different language sites often. It is also very fast and with a lot of great options I have used it for 3 months & is now the only browser I use.

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If you use Google Chrome to surf it will give you the option to translate the pages you visit on the fly with one just click, or you can select always translate Russian etc. Well worth trying for people who visit different language sites often. It is also very fast and with a lot of great options I have used it for 3 months & is now the only browser I use.

Thank you. I will give Chrome a try.

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Dear Igor, Dear one-kuna,

First of all, please accept my sincere apologies that I started this thread in such dramatic manner. I hope you will not blame me for that as there is big reason:

 

This coin is fake, and I purchased it (with some other pieces, pics are below) for 4000 roubles each (US $130) in Moscow club. I did not make any image editing software tricks, more to that - when I saw it in other's hands I was sure it was a good coin, because of its EXTREMELY CONVINCING 18th CENTURY CARTWEEL LUSTER.

It is made of high purity silver and the market will be flooded with these in the next future. I personally saw Poltinas of 1762 and 1778, roubles of Catherine and Elisabeth (common dates). I hear Peter 1 roubles are very convincing too, the list of dates is unknown, but people say there are plenty for each emperor and they will be coming. I suspect that dozens of these are already being shipped all over Russia, being artificially downgraded and toned, 'metal-detected' in hoards. I do not know how long they are there, but we are not talking about years here. I am affraid some may be already slabbed and will appear on eBay. There are some minor points telling the coin is fake, but I suppose they will be improved too. Reeded edge, though not 100% perfect, is impressive. Lettered edge still needs some improvement. The pieces I have do have strange shine on the portrait but the field is near perfect. I am sure that with some knowledge of image editing one can make good picture which will deceipt even an experienced collector shopping on-line.

These fakes do have metal-flow lines and together with this luster they make next generation of fakes. As far as I know Numismatic section of State Historical Museum (Mr. Shiryakov) already got the samples. Each coin repeats imperfectins of the originally copied coin. Fellow collectors I talked were astonished after seing this type of fake, so am I. I have freshly made pieces with no after-work, so I can see all small points without mistake, but with minor manipulations it maybe very hard to tell. Do not get me wrong - the most difficult thing for counterfeiters is to resemble the luster and make good edge. The luster is the upmost detail which counterfeitors have failed 100% of cases so far. But with this piece in hands I think the luster test becomes or may become, unfortunately, less significant (

 

coming back to your story, looks like there is still the time when you can buy cheap silver rubles in high condition in Moscow club;

was the low price for this 1774 ruble seemed suspicious to you ?

the seller could have been easy asked for well over $500 for such piece ..

but $130 puzzled me out ..

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I am pretty sure they are sold as copies, not original....

would be interesting to hear from topic starter if it was purchased as a fake :shock:

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One of the guys demonstrated couple of fake coin and I saw live reaction of different fellow dealers and collectors, then I just asked around where I can get some samples for me to study and make pictures. In a day I got the three pieces as fakes. The people I know for years would not offer this as originals.

Alex ('Romanov') from Staraya moneta web site has promised to make pictures of Elisabeth rouble and Ekaterina poltina, hope he will.

I will also make better pics myself, including the edge.

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After MiM auction yesterday's performance, it is hard to give prices (not that it was easy before).

You have a great looking common coin. Great looking makes it less common, but still. I checked NGC Census and I see tha 1764 had the most roubles graded - 14 (1774 has the same number).

In MS there are 3 coins - 61, 62, and 64. Your coin should be graded (the picture is too small, but it seems pretty impressive). I have no idea what the price should be, by my guesstimate puts it at $5000+. Also, it is investor's coin, not collector's, if you want the highest price.

 

I'm glad I can't afford these fakes! Lol

 

BTW, how did the MiM auction perform? I just browsed through it, and it seems to have done better than their previous auction. I am curious to hear the opinions of ardent auction watchers/participators!

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