The "Odd Couple" (LOL)

[bobh]

http://www.sixbid.com/nav.php?p=viewlot&am...140&lot=891

[one-kuna]

http://www.sixbid.com/nav.php?p=viewlot&am...140&lot=891

 

 

1812-1912 ruble looks modern fake to me

1915 can be genuine

[one-kuna]

better choice: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=320381056010

 

[one-kuna]

better choice: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=320381056010

 

[bobh]

1812-1912 ruble looks modern fake to me

1915 can be genuine

That's exactly why I call it the "odd couple"!

[altyn]

That's exactly why I call it the "odd couple"!

 

Speaking about odd things, what are the odds that the 1915 rouble is one of the 600 originally minted ones? Not likely. Probably one of the numerous 1927 novodels, indistinguishable from the original ones. Btw, does anybody know how many novodels were made?

[one-kuna]

Speaking about odd things, what are the odds that the 1915 rouble is one of the 600 originally minted ones? Not likely. Probably one of the numerous 1927 novodels, indistinguishable from the original ones. Btw, does anybody know how many novodels were made?

It is a very hard question to discuss; I just reviewed some literature and these are my observations:

1915 ruble

*Uzdenikov mint volume/production book lists no mintage for this one

*Uzdenikov 3rd edition rates this ruble as little as (.), in spite the 1914 is rated (-)

*Goodman sale had 6 of them

*where Spassky got data on 600 hundred only made - I cannot verify, may be his article "Some notes on russian minting production 1914-1917" can bring some light on it but I doubt

*looking on mintage of a whole 1915 silver production in Uzdenikov book, counting so many pieces for sale on a market, etc - the one can assume that 600 pieces information found and introduced by Spassky 30 years ago could have been inaccurate; it may be lost one zero (0) and if this a case - it would be more realistic mintage of 6000 to see so many pieces, besides SFA novodels and hibrids. I personnaly do not think so that SFA ordered a large order because of many historical events were happening in Russia back to 1927: like existing of the new Soviet State, printing new paper money, end of War at Far East, and looking at SFA price lists and reviewing journal Collector of those years - there were no large mintage by SFA in my opinion.

[RW Julian]

It is a very hard question to discuss; I just reviewed some literature and these are my observations:

1915 ruble

*Uzdenikov mint volume/production book lists no mintage for this one

*Uzdenikov 3rd edition rates this ruble as little as (.), in spite the 1914 is rated (-)

*Goodman sale had 6 of them

*where Spassky got data on 600 hundred only made - I cannot verify, may be his article "Some notes on russian minting production 1914-1917" can bring some light on it but I doubt

*looking on mintage of a whole 1915 silver production in Uzdenikov book, counting so many pieces for sale on a market, etc - the one can assume that 600 pieces information found and introduced by Spassky 30 years ago could have been inaccurate; it may be lost one zero (0) and if this a case - it would be more realistic mintage of 6000 to see so many pieces, besides SFA novodels and hibrids. I personnaly do not think so that SFA ordered a large order because of many historical events were happening in Russia back to 1927: like existing of the new Soviet State, printing new paper money, end of War at Far East, and looking at SFA price lists and reviewing journal Collector of those years - there were no large mintage by SFA in my opinion.

I corresponded with Dr. Spassky on this matter over 40 years ago. The 600 is absolutely correct

and was in fact published in the Imperial Treasury’s annual report in 1916. In early 1921, however,

several thousand silver roubles were struck at Petrograd for the Far Eastern Republic (FER) at

Chita; there is little doubt that these were dated 1915. This FER mintage has been published on

several occasions, as early as 1922.

 

The original mintage in 1915 was struck at the request of a military unit in honor of its centennial but

the coins, for whatever reason, were retained by the Mint.

 

RWJ

[one-kuna]

I corresponded with Dr. Spassky on this matter over 40 years ago. The 600 is absolutely correct

and was in fact published in the Imperial Treasury’s annual report in 1916. In early 1921, however,

several thousand silver roubles were struck at Petrograd for the Far Eastern Republic (FER) at

Chita; there is little doubt that these were dated 1915. This FER mintage has been published on

several occasions, as early as 1922.

 

The original mintage in 1915 was struck at the request of a military unit in honor of its centennial but

the coins, for whatever reason, were retained by the Mint.

 

RWJ

 

Let me just expand a little bit a situation:

*Spassky could not tell and widely discuss the Imperial material as he lived and you corresponded with him in komunist era where all correspondence were checked up by soviet agents. It would be against soviets - to place such material or have discuss one in correspondance with someone, especaillly like you, a foreigner-american, for soviet agents. So, but still being ask and working in a museum Spassky gave you whatever soviet census filtered and permitted him to write you, including many cut offs without informing him or just returning letters to be re-wrote. I hope this part can explain for many (you probably know that but avoiding this part) why Imperial period was not so welcome by soviets and was little researched and published those times.

*Mentioning of number of 600 pieces is a nonsens, why, because page 115 of your catalog listed 300 more pieces in 1916 !

So it is not 600 already but 900 pieces !!!

*Page 101 same catalog states that 5000 pieces were struck in 1921 !

*Severin catalog, for example, says that 600 is an inaccurate number too ! In addition, there is a version that 5000 were planning to be issued !

*Severin also admited that Nicholas II like to observe his combats and presented soldier just minted silver rubles and never gave up old ones. Here we go, it can be one of possible mix of info; for example Nicholas came to one of his Army in August and brought with him 600 just minted pieces from a mint and gave up to his soldiers. Now, press and others states that only 600 were struck (absurd).

*As I have mentioned earlier, Uzdenikov lists ruble of 1915 as (.), so does yours (S). If one take it true that only 600 was minted before revolution WHY Uzdenikov and you placed so low estimate rarity on this ruble? Because of SFA mintage, but SFA agency mintage is unknown !

*I think the mintage of 1915 ruble was as planned by mint in amount of 5000 (possible 6000) and that is why Nicholas could take very easy 600 pieces with him to the Army batalions, that is why Uzdenikov placed (.) as its rarity, Severin (-), Julian (S), Bitkin ®, and the latest credible researcher Kazakov (nothing) !

[RW Julian]

Let me just expand a little bit a situation:

*Spassky could not tell and widely discuss the Imperial material as he lived and you corresponded with him in komunist era where all correspondence were checked up by soviet agents. It would be against soviets - to place such material or have discuss one in correspondance with someone, especaillly like you, a foreigner-american, for soviet agents. So, but still being ask and working in a museum Spassky gave you whatever soviet census filtered and permitted him to write you, including many cut offs without informing him or just returning letters to be re-wrote. I hope this part can explain for many (you probably know that but avoiding this part) why Imperial period was not so welcome by soviets and was little researched and published those times.

*Mentioning of number of 600 pieces is a nonsens, why, because page 115 of your catalog listed 300 more pieces in 1916 !

So it is not 600 already but 900 pieces !!!

*Page 101 same catalog states that 5000 pieces were struck in 1921 !

*Severin catalog, for example, says that 600 is an inaccurate number too ! In addition, there is a version that 5000 were planning to be issued !

*Severin also admited that Nicholas II like to observe his combats and presented soldier just minted silver rubles and never gave up old ones. Here we go, it can be one of possible mix of info; for example Nicholas came to one of his Army in August and brought with him 600 just minted pieces from a mint and gave up to his soldiers. Now, press and others states that only 600 were struck (absurd).

*As I have mentioned earlier, Uzdenikov lists ruble of 1915 as (.), so does yours (S). If one take it true that only 600 was minted before revolution WHY Uzdenikov and you placed so low estimate rarity on this ruble? Because of SFA mintage, but SFA agency mintage is unknown !

*I think the mintage of 1915 ruble was as planned by mint in amount of 5000 (possible 6000) and that is why Nicholas could take very easy 600 pieces with him to the Army batalions, that is why Uzdenikov placed (.) as its rarity, Severin (-), Julian (S), Bitkin ®, and the latest credible researcher Kazakov (nothing) !

Unfortunately one-kuna has badly confused the materials. The following apply:

 

1) The 300 pieces listed for 1916 were restrikes of the Gangut rouble by order of the Treasury due to complaints by

collectors. This has been well known for a long time and is discussed on pages 104 and 111 of my book.

 

2) In 1968, when Dr. Spassky published his article on the coinage of 1914–1917 (in Numizmatika i Sfragistika) it

was perfectly possible to discuss Imperial coinage matters by letter. What was not possible was a discussion of

anything remotely connected with current political matters. Both Dr. Spassky and I were very careful about this as I

did not wish to cause him any difficulties. If you read the 1968 article you will find that Dr. Spassky was able to publish

full details on the coinage itself.

 

3) Dr. Spassky was held in high esteem by the Soviet authorities in 1968 and therefore had the necessary prestige

to do research in the Imperial archives and publish the results. I am somewhat surprised that one-kuna is not aware

of this. I know this to be true from personal knowledge.

 

4) I listed the 1915 rouble as scarce because I have seen quite a few of them and so did Severin. I disagree, however,

with Uzdenikov on the 1914 rouble rarity. The rarity determinations for Nicholas II are still an ongoing matter, however,

and rarities will change as fresh data are published.

 

RWJ

[one-kuna]

I listed the 1915 rouble as scarce because I have seen quite a few of them and so did Severin.

RWJ

 

 

Fortunately I am a one head above of your delirium.

 

If this ruble (1915) was issued by so limited mintage against other date of Nicholas II, it deserves to be rated, for example, as RR or RRR or R2 or R3 ( not just scarse ). This is your a main hole

 

Because this ruble 1915 is not rare at all, which is a true by now, that is why it is not granted in latest Kazakov reference at all, also earlier in Uzdenikov.

 

Having a correspondence with an museum expert and using a reputation on so respectable forum will not prevent you of making a mistakes in a major debate where a common sense and simple logic are better welcome than "badly confuses"!

 

[And986]

better choice: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=320381056010

 

 

Wtat is wrong with this couple may I ask?

[one-kuna]

Wtat is wrong with this couple may I ask?

 

nothing wrong with the 4 pictures, but interesting was if real coins were involved in this auction, not just pictures/images

[And986]

nothing wrong with the 4 pictures, but interesting was if real coins were involved in this auction, not just pictures/images

 

What's the point to sell the pictures and accept Paypal.... It is interesting... The seller's been acked to provide the additional pictures by the buyer...

[altyn]

I think that everyone agrees that the 1915 rouble is not rare. The question is why. As I can understand from this discussion there are two explanations: 1) it was initially issued in a large number (up to 6,000 according to one kuna); 2) there was a small number issued originally but later a substantial number was produced in 1921 and/or 1927. I am also getting from this discussion that the second view is supported by the research conducted by Spassky in 1960-ies, while I am still not sure which facts/data support the first point of view.

 

And I have hard time imagining Nicholas giving away as many as 600 coins at a time and doing this repeatedly! Just think about the sheer volume of handling involved. It is quite possible that the czar could have done such things but on a much smaller scale. We must admit that the Severin's reference to such events (which he did not witness himself) does not have to involve hundreds of coins. So, the mintage of 600 or 900 would suffice and there would be leftovers.

[Oldman]

I think that everyone agrees that the 1915 rouble is not rare. The question is why. As I can understand from this discussion there are two explanations: 1) it was initially issued in a large number (up to 6,000 according to one kuna); 2) there was a small number issued originally but later a substantial number was produced in 1921 and/or 1927. I am also getting from this discussion that the second view is supported by the research conducted by Spassky in 1960-ies, while I am still not sure which facts/data support the first point of view.

Correct. All the confusion with 1915 rouble comes from the fact that the number of 1920s-produced "novodels" is unknown. Originally made small number (600) reflects political situation at the time as well as is supported by the official information (available both before and after the October revolution). I'm not really clear here what one-kuna is trying to prove.

 

And I have hard time imagining Nicholas giving away as many as 600 coins at a time and doing this repeatedly! Just think about the sheer volume of handling involved. It is quite possible that the czar could have done such things but on a much smaller scale. We must admit that the Severin's reference to such events (which he did not witness himself) does not have to involve hundreds of coins. So, the mintage of 600 or 900 would suffice and there would be leftovers.

His Majesty did not have to do it himself phisically. He announced the event and took part in the ceremony. This was a common thing in Imperial Russia (Gangut rouble, all those coronation jetons, etc.).

[RW Julian]

I think that everyone agrees that the 1915 rouble is not rare. The question is why. As I can understand from this discussion there are two explanations: 1) it was initially issued in a large number (up to 6,000 according to one kuna); 2) there was a small number issued originally but later a substantial number was produced in 1921 and/or 1927. I am also getting from this discussion that the second view is supported by the research conducted by Spassky in 1960-ies, while I am still not sure which facts/data support the first point of view.

 

And I have hard time imagining Nicholas giving away as many as 600 coins at a time and doing this repeatedly! Just think about the sheer volume of handling involved. It is quite possible that the czar could have done such things but on a much smaller scale. We must admit that the Severin's reference to such events (which he did not witness himself) does not have to involve hundreds of coins. So, the mintage of 600 or 900 would suffice and there would be leftovers.

It is unlikely that more than a small number of 1915s were struck in 1927. These were made for

sale abroad and there were simply not that many foreign collectors putting together date sets of

Nicholas II roubles. Moreover, many of these would have been in proof.

 

The Gangut rouble was also restruck in 1927 and would have been far more popular with foreign

collectors but the rarity of that coin today shows that not all that many Ganguts were made in 1927,

which in turn indicates that the 1915s were struck in even smaller numbers. The Gangut coin carrying

the portrait of Peter I was acceptable to the Soviets but Nicholas II was not, another strike against

very many of the 1915s being made.

 

The 1921 coinage at Petrograd for the Far Eastern Republic is somewhat more complicated than it

first appears. The stated mintages are

 

Gold 5, 10, and 15 roubles – 22,975 roubles worth

 

Silver 50 kopecks and 1 rouble – 6,712 roubles worth

 

There is no further breakdown available at present although it is likely that such records exist. It was

obviously a show coinage with coins being passed out to supporters of the regime and to give the

impression that the FER had a stable monetary system. This meant that such coins were more likely

to be preserved until the present day. (Some years ago there was a report that roubles of 1915 were

often found in Siberia, the location of the Far Eastern Republic.)

 

It is quite possible that some of the scarcer varieties, for example, of the 15 roubles or 1914 50 kopecks

were included in this 1921 coinage.

 

RWJ

[altyn]

His Majesty did not have to do it himself phisically. He announced the event and took part in the ceremony. This was a common thing in Imperial Russia (Gangut rouble, all those coronation jetons, etc.).

 

Nonetheless, at least sometimes he did it by himself. And that was the whole point of it - to convey personal thanks to ordinary soldiers. I found this 1904 photograph of him awarding rouble coins (another low mintage year!) to the enlisted ranks of an infantry regiment.

 

[one-kuna]

A picture of Nicholas II giving a silver ruble to his sodiers just a perfect example what I meant.

Back to 1915 he could have taken 600 pieces from the mint (of course not personnaly but through his order it was delivered to his assistant of provisioning from a mint) and that is how 600 number showed up. Also, this quantity could have lasted for sometime in 1915, as there were no rubles were issued in 1916.

Too many 1915 rubles showed up these days.

For last 40 years, since 1968 Leonid Soderman auction, up to today, the whole mintage of 600 pieces has been auctioned out!Let me explain how easy it comes up for count. Looking last two days through the auction catalogs, it was observed that the average quantity of 1915 rubles auctioned yearly were from 12 up to 25 pieces. It does cover all auction houses especially with a massive selling of 1915 ruble like Conros, Gelos, MiM, Adacoins, Markov/Baldwin New York sales, Gorny 2008 7 pieces, Goodman 1991 6 pieces, World-wide of California, Hess-Dive, Swiss Bank Cor/ UBS, Goldberg, Superior, etc.

So if take 15 pieces average per year - then for last 40 years 600 pieces were gone!

[Oldman]

Nonetheless, at least sometimes he did it by himself. And that was the whole point of it - to convey personal thanks to ordinary soldiers. I found this 1904 photograph of him awarding rouble coins (another low mintage year!) to the enlisted ranks of an infantry regiment.

 

Nice photo ! I've seen it some time ago. But still can not see the year on the rouble