1729 Rouble

[Andrey5]

Not long ago I bought this 1729 Rouble at an auction in Germany. I didn't have reasons for doubts, but somebody has recently questioned its authenticity to the auctioneer.

Would be grateful for opinions if this Rouble is authentic or not. Enlarged scan, weight and size: http://avscoins.com/Collection/showcoin.ph...&id=cRUS-50

[grivna1726]

Not long ago I bought this 1729 Rouble at an auction in Germany. I didn't have reasons for doubts, but somebody has recently questioned its authenticity to the auctioneer.

Would be grateful for opinions if this Rouble is authentic or not. Enlarged scan, weight and size: http://avscoins.com/Collection/showcoin.ph...&id=cRUS-50

I see nothing that immediately screams "fake" at me. It looks like an unusually nice coin (although I have not tried to match it against pictures of known genuine examples).

 

Is the person who questions it a knowledgeable collector, or a novice? What does he/she see that raises doubt in his/her mind?

 

I don't know that it is real, but it looks okay to me.

[RW Julian]

I see nothing that immediately screams "fake" at me. It looks like an unusually nice coin (although I have not tried to match it against pictures of known genuine examples).

Is the person who questions it a knowledgeable collector, or a novice? What does he/she see that raises doubt in his/her mind?

I don't know that it is real, but it looks okay to me.

These dies are not in my database of fakes.

 

RWJ

[one-kuna]

Not long ago I bought this 1729 Rouble at an auction in Germany. I didn't have reasons for doubts, but somebody has recently questioned its authenticity to the auctioneer.

Would be grateful for opinions if this Rouble is authentic or not. Enlarged scan, weight and size: http://avscoins.com/Collection/showcoin.ph...&id=cRUS-50

Gorny 173, lot 8176, slabbed NGC XF 45, estimated 750 euro, sold at ... ( I will take a look later one) but

what you asking for: that somebody is questioning its authenticity with an auctioneer, so there are some doubts from somebody, not you, on NGC certifying this ruble???

[Andrey5]

Gorny 173, lot 8176, slabbed NGC XF 45, estimated 750 euro, sold at ... ( I will take a look later one) but

what you asking for: that somebody is questioning its authenticity with an auctioneer, so there are some doubts from somebody, not you, on NGC certifying this ruble???

 

The pictures and lot descriptions in the Gorny 173 catalog for lots 8176 and 8176A were mixed up. This is lot 8176A. The Rouble is not certified by NGC or any other third party grading company. It looked OK to me, and in a very nice condition for this type. The bidding was heavy, ended at EUR 3400, and the final price tag for me (including fees, tax, delivery cost) was equivalent to $5400 at last October rate.

With 22 years of active coin collecting I am not new to numismatics, but I do not consider myself a specialist in Russian coins. Pre 1917 Roubles are just a modest sideline of my collection, but the one I am liking more and more... I would prefer to keep this coin, even if it was expensive, but of course not if there is a qualified expert opinion that it is a fake.

Mr.Gorny heard doubts about its authenticity from somebody whose opinion proved to be correct in a couple of other cases, therefore I assume that was not a novice. The auction house informed me of this and allowed me a few days to check its authenticity. The clerk from GM who called me was not aware of the reasons behind the doubts in the authenticity of the coin. I hope they are not justified, but would appreciate the attention to this issue and the opinions of experts in this forum. I uploaded a bigger scan, if it helps.

http://avscoins.com/%5BcRUS-50%5DPeter-II-Rouble-1729.jpg

[one-kuna]

The pictures and lot descriptions in the Gorny 173 catalog for lots 8176 and 8176A were mixed up. This is lot 8176A. The Rouble is not certified by NGC or any other third party grading company. It looked OK to me, and in a very nice condition for this type. The bidding was heavy, ended at EUR 3400, and the final price tag for me (including fees, tax, delivery cost) was equivalent to $5400 at last October rate.

With 22 years of active coin collecting I am not new to numismatics, but I do not consider myself a specialist in Russian coins. Pre 1917 Roubles are just a modest sideline of my collection, but the one I am liking more and more... I would prefer to keep this coin, even if it was expensive, but of course not if there is a qualified expert opinion that it is a fake.

Mr.Gorny heard doubts about its authenticity from somebody whose opinion proved to be correct in a couple of other cases, therefore I assume that was not a novice. The auction house informed me of this and allowed me a few days to check its authenticity. The clerk from GM who called me was not aware of the reasons behind the doubts in the authenticity of the coin. I hope they are not justified, but would appreciate the attention to this issue and the opinions of experts in this forum. I uploaded a bigger scan, if it helps.

http://avscoins.com/%5BcRUS-50%5DPeter-II-Rouble-1729.jpg

 

OK,

So this is lot 8176A ohterwise description of this lot is a picture corresponding to lot 8176, true? both sides of ruble, true?

[one-kuna]

The pictures and lot descriptions in the Gorny 173 catalog for lots 8176 and 8176A were mixed up. This is lot 8176A. The Rouble is not certified by NGC or any other third party grading company. It looked OK to me, and in a very nice condition for this type. The bidding was heavy, ended at EUR 3400, and the final price tag for me (including fees, tax, delivery cost) was equivalent to $5400 at last October rate.

With 22 years of active coin collecting I am not new to numismatics, but I do not consider myself a specialist in Russian coins. Pre 1917 Roubles are just a modest sideline of my collection, but the one I am liking more and more... I would prefer to keep this coin, even if it was expensive, but of course not if there is a qualified expert opinion that it is a fake.

Mr.Gorny heard doubts about its authenticity from somebody whose opinion proved to be correct in a couple of other cases, therefore I assume that was not a novice. The auction house informed me of this and allowed me a few days to check its authenticity. The clerk from GM who called me was not aware of the reasons behind the doubts in the authenticity of the coin. I hope they are not justified, but would appreciate the attention to this issue and the opinions of experts in this forum. I uploaded a bigger scan, if it helps.

http://avscoins.com/%5BcRUS-50%5DPeter-II-Rouble-1729.jpg

 

according your story couple months (few weeks) after a sale, a coin what you purchased, somebody (???) started to question Gorny of its authenticyty, true?

 

let me ask you, look at lot 8177, does it look identical to the coin what you purchased, you do not have to be an experts to compare these two...if you see that they are identical - so why these two coins not under doubts??? because only one you purchased???

 

as you been asked earlier and never replied to it, what part of the coin is under doubt???

 

or this is only talking and collecting gossip because one smart head said it...

 

as RWJulian noticed earlier and he has one of the largest data base, this coin is not in his fake folder...

 

if mr. Gorny was so kind to you and led you research this coin because of some doubts, why he did not check this coin with his experts and present you some concrete details on it, NOT JUST WE HAVE SOME DOUBTS, that is sound bull...

[IgorS]

I checked in the book on roubles of Peter II by Petrunin and I see pretty exact match with 146.1. It mentions in the book that this rouble is not in GM and Bitkin. I am not crazy about the feel of the surface of this coin here. Just seems very dull, especially considering the high level of detail, but it could be the picture, or the way it was stored, or whatever.

[Andrey5]

OK,

So this is lot 8176A ohterwise description of this lot is a picture corresponding to lot 8176, true? both sides of ruble, true?

 

In the Gorny 173 catalog my coin is described as lot 8176A, but its photo is under number 8176.

I did not have a chance yet to speak to Mr. Gorny about this and neither the email nor the clerk from Gorny & Mosch who called me yesterday about this matter explained the reason for "doubts". I'll try to speak to Mr. Gorny on Monday and find out the details.

 

I don't have the Petrunin's book, but in Bitkin obverse seems to correspond to 112 and reverse looks more like A.m since it has the same "ц" and a dot in the center while A.k reverse (Bitkin 112) doesn't have such a dot.

[grivna1726]

I am not crazy about the feel of the surface of this coin here. Just seems very dull, especially considering the high level of detail, but it could be the picture, or the way it was stored, or whatever.

Igor, the dull appearance might be due to the fact that this is a scan. Scanners don't seem to do a very good job of showing the luster on a coin (especially silver coins) and typically give a dull, lifeless appearance. Digital cameras usually give a better result.

 

In reality, this coin is probably much nicer than it looks in the picture.

[one-kuna]

In the Gorny 173 catalog my coin is described as lot 8176A, but its photo is under number 8176.

I did not have a chance yet to speak to Mr. Gorny about this and neither the email nor the clerk from Gorny & Mosch who called me yesterday about this matter explained the reason for "doubts". I'll try to speak to Mr. Gorny on Monday and find out the details.

 

I don't have the Petrunin's book, but in Bitkin obverse seems to correspond to 112 and reverse looks more like A.m since it has the same "ц" and a dot in the center while A.k reverse (Bitkin 112) doesn't have such a dot.

 

if you have Gorny 173, please compare lot 8176 and 8177

[one-kuna]

I checked in the book on roubles of Peter II by Petrunin and I see pretty exact match with 146.1. It mentions in the book that this rouble is not in GM and Bitkin. I am not crazy about the feel of the surface of this coin here. Just seems very dull, especially considering the high level of detail, but it could be the picture, or the way it was stored, or whatever.

 

i know you can't but can you scan petrunin ruble so i compare it to this one...

i start suspecting this one...

[one-kuna]

Igor, the dull appearance might be due to the fact that this is a scan. Scanners don't seem to do a very good job of showing the luster on a coin (especially silver coins) and typically give a dull, lifeless appearance. Digital cameras usually give a better result.

 

In reality, this coin is probably much nicer than it looks in the picture.

 

 

agree on dull appearance opinion, but wanted to add that I looked through a dozen of sales (so far) and did not see similar piece in such condition...

it brings two oprions more: 1.fresh engraved details and 2.new variant found, unless pertrunin ruble is really identical...

but i already have a little doubts too...

[one-kuna]

I checked in the book on roubles of Peter II by Petrunin and I see pretty exact match with 146.1. It mentions in the book that this rouble is not in GM and Bitkin. I am not crazy about the feel of the surface of this coin here. Just seems very dull, especially considering the high level of detail, but it could be the picture, or the way it was stored, or whatever.

 

 

GM's rubles are too far for this one, most GM rubles of this type are not in so extremely fine condition so it is hard to compare however this ruble is GM number 3...

[Andrey5]

I made a few photos of the edge legend, if it might be helpful for the authentication. I am not good at photographing coins (I usually scan them) therefore light and colors are far from perfect.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/dCDZg...feat=directlink

 

The legend is number 4 in Bitkin. It looks like the legend was applied in two steps: first РОССИСКОI * РУБЛЬ *** with rosettes somewhat going off the edge at the end, and then ** МОСКОВСКОГО ДВОРА The second half of the legend was not perfectly placed after the first one and consequently there are not three but five rosettes between РУБЛЬ and МОСКОВСКОГО and the last letter A of the word ДВОРА is superimposed on the first letter P of the word РОССИСКОI

 

Am I right that such cases when edge legend was done in two steps are not uncommon in Russian coinage of this period?

[one-kuna]

I made a few photos of the edge legend, if it might be helpful for the authentication. I am not good at photographing coins (I usually scan them) therefore light and colors are far from perfect.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/dCDZg...feat=directlink

 

The legend is number 4 in Bitkin. It looks like the legend was applied in two steps: first РОССИСКОI * РУБЛЬ *** with rosettes somewhat going off the edge at the end, and then ** МОСКОВСКОГО ДВОРА The second half of the legend was not perfectly placed after the first one and consequently there are not three but five rosettes between РУБЛЬ and МОСКОВСКОГО and the last letter A of the word ДВОРА is superimposed on the first letter P of the word РОССИСКОI

 

Am I right that such cases when edge legend was done in two steps are not uncommon in Russian coinage of this period?

 

i sent you personel message pls check...

[one-kuna]

I made a few photos of the edge legend, if it might be helpful for the authentication. I am not good at photographing coins (I usually scan them) therefore light and colors are far from perfect.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/dCDZg...feat=directlink

 

The legend is number 4 in Bitkin. It looks like the legend was applied in two steps: first РОССИСКОI * РУБЛЬ *** with rosettes somewhat going off the edge at the end, and then ** МОСКОВСКОГО ДВОРА The second half of the legend was not perfectly placed after the first one and consequently there are not three but five rosettes between РУБЛЬ and МОСКОВСКОГО and the last letter A of the word ДВОРА is superimposed on the first letter P of the word РОССИСКОI

 

Am I right that such cases when edge legend was done in two steps are not uncommon in Russian coinage of this period?

 

buy petrunin book, reserve two - one for me, might be cheaper...

[IgorS]

OK. I looked a little more in Petrunin and I think 146.3 is a better match.

I am posting a scan, so see if you can find the differences. Good luck.

 

[one-kuna]

OK. I looked a little more in Petrunin and I think 146.3 is a better match.

I am posting a scan, so see if you can find the differences. Good luck.

 

 

 

that's right - this one is identical match to a ruble in this post

 

 

if Petrunin ruble is genuine - congrat to Andrey for a good buy! -

 

 

the only doubts i have is that i looked at list a dozen auctions and did not see this ruble for sale in XF condition, and it looks to me that it is GM number 3; also all GM rubles pictured in his corpus are NOT such beauties as this one from Andrey, most major auctions did not have this ruble as it is not scarce and rare at all, so it is difficult to locate indeed such piece and to compare to Andrey one; if this discussion keeps going, i can do more research looking at all auctions i have and related numismatic material

[bobh]

that's right - this one is identical match to a ruble in this post

I don't think it's identical ... the eyes look wrong (do not match).

[one-kuna]

I don't think it's identical ... the eyes look wrong (do not match).

 

same eyes, blue-grey, as his mother's ones'

[IgorS]

I don't think it's identical ... the eyes look wrong (do not match).

 

Interesting observation... I was always amused by how wear of the coin produced a different facial expresion on the portrait.

[one-kuna]

same eyes, blue-grey, as his mother's ones'

 

Petrunin photo has half eye erased, and the remnants of lines comig out from his eye are SAME as on a ruble in this post bought from Gorny; you can't say a difference by having remnants only - you kidding me

[one-kuna]

Not long ago I bought this 1729 Rouble at an auction in Germany. I didn't have reasons for doubts, but somebody has recently questioned its authenticity to the auctioneer.

Would be grateful for opinions if this Rouble is authentic or not. Enlarged scan, weight and size: http://avscoins.com/Collection/showcoin.ph...&id=cRUS-50

 

after all, if you have a chance, return it, i think 5400 is too much (for me ) for coin with so many doubts here and there...

[Andrey5]

Many thanks to everybody who participated in the discussion and took the trouble of investigating this coin. I decided to return it to Gorny & Mosch and the auctioneer agreed to refund in full.

There were two main reasons that formed my decision.

1) The coin in such a high grade could hardly avoid in 190 years important coin collections or sales. Therefore it should have been listed in recognized numismatic sources, but the exact match was not found in the Grand Duke's or other important catalogs. It is not Bitkin 112 (reverse does not match), as advertised in Gorny 173 catalog. It is also not Petrunin 146.3, since some letters and crowns are slightly different, though rather close.

2) My decision was made when I was shown another very dubious rouble struck with exactly the same dies, including the same defect at letter M on reverse.

http://avscoins.com/1.jpg

 

I might be wrong in letting go a nice rare coin, if it proves to be authentic, but I'd rather be wrong on the side of caution.