Davide Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 My name is David and I am 53 year old. I have begun to collect Russian coins only one year ago. My speciality are Roman coins (republican expecially), so if someone of you had need of a council or a opinion on Roman coins, ask me. For what I can I will render useful.I am useful since today for your courtesy in order to submit a question. Someone knows what represents these countermarks (same on obverse and reverse)? These are not made recently, because tone is same that coin.Thanks and Best Regards to everybody...and excused for my written English with which I do not have very good relationships eh eh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 I think someone just ruined this nice little denga with one of those hole punches that train conductors use, with different shapes, to punch tickets. I dont think its any kind of real countermark. As to the tone, the patina was just pressed in with the metal, so it is consistent with the surfaces of the coin, which does by the way appear quite genuine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 And welcome to coinpeople! Best of luck in your newfound Russian numismatic interest. Russian coins are certainly as challenging as Ancient Roman! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 I think someone just ruined this nice little denga with one of those hole punches that train conductors use, with different shapes, to punch tickets. I dont think its any kind of real countermark. As to the tone, the patina was just pressed in with the metal, so it is consistent with the surfaces of the coin, which does by the way appear quite genuine. I'm not so sure. The ticket punch (at least the kind I know) squeezes together like scissors or pliers. A shaped metal protrusion penetrates through the ticket and through a matching metal hole on the other side of the device. So, if that method was used, I would expect to see the "flower" design impressed into one side (incused) while raised up (in relief) on the other. Unless my eyes are playing tricks on me, the "flower" design is incused in both sides of the coin. Further, the markings are not in the same place on the coin. Note where the marking in front of the horse is located relative to the edge. Now look at the distance from the edge of the "flower" above the "17" of the date. It seems clear to me that these are not in the same position (as one might expect if a ticket puncher was used). Also, the "flowers" on the rider's side are (at least) doubled while those on the dated side look like single impressions. I don't know why this coin has these countermarks, but I think it was done with a hammer and punch (i.e striking) rather than squeezing with a ticket punch (although I have no idea why it was done). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARENUM Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 My name is David and I am 53 year old. I have begun to collect Russian coins only one year ago. My speciality are Roman coins (republican expecially), so if someone of you had need of a council or a opinion on Roman coins, ask me. For what I can I will render useful.I am useful since today for your courtesy in order to submit a question. Someone knows what represents these countermarks (same on obverse and reverse)? These are not made recently, because tone is same that coin. <img src=http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//110/110398/178233/denga1795a-vi.jpg?1216284257> <img src=http://images4.fotoalbum.alice.it/v/www1-4//110/110398/178233/denga1795b-vi.jpg?1216284258> Thanks and Best Regards to everybody...and excused for my written English with which I do not have very good relationships eh eh Welcome to coin people In my experience countermark looks like more privet Asian countermarks. I have seen Chinese multi cointermarks on silver Russian coins with numbers and symbols. Possible flowers design more relative to Japanise, but I'm not sure . I hope Collectors of Asian coins have seen similar countermark before. Rarenum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 Grivna, your explanation makes complete sense, regarding my ticket punch theory. The coin would be too think for one of those, and i agree, the imprint would not be the same on both sides etc. The marks were hammer punched. So the question remains. What do the puches mean? The value of 2 "units" of currency, but for use by whom? Perhaps Rarenum is on to something. It does look a bit like the Japanese Imperial Chrysanthamum (sp?) but I think with less petals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted July 19, 2008 Report Share Posted July 19, 2008 Grivna, your explanation makes complete sense, regarding my ticket punch theory. The coin would be too think for one of those, and i agree, the imprint would not be the same on both sides etc. The marks were hammer punched. So the question remains. What do the puches mean? The value of 2 "units" of currency, but for use by whom? Perhaps Rarenum is on to something. It does look a bit like the Japanese Imperial Chrysanthamum (sp?) but I think with less petals. I wonder if it might be listed in the Brunk book (LINK) on countermarked coins? Does anyone here have this book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davide Posted July 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 Hello, first of all, I’d like to thank you for the welcome I received. I’d like to highlight that the countermarks are all incused, and there is not correspondence between the two sides of the coin. The two that are on the other side of the coin, they are impressed twice (at least). I believe that no one of you has seen them on Russian coins, and therefore they can not be ascribed to any official source, hence the idea that they are done by private sources is a credible idea. Perhaps Japanese.. who represent a flower, chrysanthemum, as being appreciated by Japanese people. Anyway, if any of you happens to know any certain news on this regard, please write it down in this discussion so I can read it. Thank, and please accept best regards. David Ps. For any kind of issue regarding roman coins, do not hesitate and I’ll be pleased to do any thing I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 Perhaps Japanese.. who represent a flower, chrysanthemum, as being appreciated by Japanese people. Anyway, if any of you happens to know any certain news on this regard, please write it down in this discussion so I can read it. Hello David, Welcome to coinpeople. On the chance that these markings may have originated in the Far East, maybe posting the pictures with your question on http://www.zeno.ru/ might prove helpful. The only other possibility that comes to mind is the Brunk book. I know next to nothing about Asian coinages. I have occasionally seen Iranian countermarks/overstrikes on Russian coins, so would not overlook the possibility that these might be of Islamic origin (although Oriental seems a better bet). Please let us know if you learn anything about these most interesting countermarks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davide Posted July 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 Thank You, Grivna. I will follow your council. If and when I will know something certainly I will write to this great forum. Have a good evening to Everybody. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARENUM Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Russian countermark on Iranian copper coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Russian countermark on Iranian copper coin. Very interesting and the first I have seen. Rarenum, is anything known about this countermark? Is it done officially, or maybe just some jeweller's private mark? Is there a value in Russian money on the other side of the coin? The countermark looks old, maybe from the early 1700s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARENUM Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 I have occasionally seen Iranian countermarks/overstrikes on Russian coins, so would not overlook the possibility that these might be of Islamic origin (although Oriental seems a better bet). Grivna1726, Did you mention Russian countermark or Russian coin? I have add image of Iranian copper coin with Russian countermark,design looks different . Rarenum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Grivna1726,Did you mention Russian countermark or Russian coin? I have add image of Iranian copper coin with Russian countermark,design looks different . Rarenum. I have seen images of Russian coins with Iranian countermarks or overstrikes, but this is the first time I have seen an Iranian coin with Russian countermarks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARENUM Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Very interesting and the first I have seen. Rarenum, is anything known about this countermark? Is it done officially, or maybe just some jeweller's private mark? Is there a value in Russian money on the other side of the coin? The countermark looks old, maybe from the early 1700s? According on M.Severova countermark was struck on the end of 18th century, then Georgia was under Protectorate of Russia. More info. Can be find in 1. RNS#40 The Eagle Counterstamp on Iranian Copper Coins. 2. Pahomov book "Coins of Georgia". 3. In part one or two in the book in Memory Oreshnikov you can find great article about Hermitage collection mention couple coins with Russian eagle countermark was receiving from privet famous collection. Rarenum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARENUM Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 I have seen images of Russian coins with Iranian countermarks or overstrikes, but this is the first time I have seen an Iranian coin with Russian countermarks. Interesting .I have overstrikes in my collection,but I have never seen Iranian countermark on Russian coin.If you have the images or some info. would be great. Rarenum, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 According on M.Severova countermark was struck on the end of 18th century, and then Georgia was under Protectorate of Russia.More info. Can be find in 1. RNS#40 The Eagle Counterstamp on Iranian Copper Coins. 2. Pahomov book "Coins of Georgia". 3. In part one or two in the book in Memory Oreshnikov you can find great article about Hermitage collection mention couple coins with Russian eagle countermark was receiving from privet famous collection. Rarenum. Whoops! I have JRNS #40, but don't remember this article & will have to dig it out. I don't have either the Pahomov book or Oreshnikov's work in my library. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARENUM Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Whoops! I have JRNS #40, but don't remember this article & will have to dig it out. Other coin was on Markov sale, can be find on the front page of his catolog#5 from 1997 lot 227 listed as Extremely Rare ,and description : little more then 30 spesiment recorded and 24 of them kept in Hermitage Museum. Rarenum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Interesting .I have overstrikes in my collection,but I have never seen Iranian countermark on Russian coin.If you have the images or some info. would be great.Rarenum, If memory is correct, one was published in JRNS many years ago (sorry, I don't remember which one). I saw another recently, maybe it was one of the Aalborg coins sold by Hoiland? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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