French Jeton

[Ian]

Here's an interesting pair for the numismatists among us.

 

The first is a trial strike of the reverse die for a jeton issued in 1737 for the `Parties Casuelles' ( a section of the Kings administration). This die was engraved by Jean Duvivier for `La Monnaie' (Paris Mint). The design was only used once, and specifically for the Parties casuelles. As such there were probably less than two thousand of the actual jeton ever minted.

 

 

The second is an actual example of the silver jeton produced. The interesting thing about this one though is that it evidences that the die used in the strike was split. The large cud on the reverse, caused by metal being forced through the split at the time of striking, has obliterated much of the detail of the reverse design.

 

 

While I cannot be certain that the jeton was struck from the exact same die as the trial strike. The odds are fairly high. It is (at least to me) interesting to note an example from the `birth' of the die alongside one that must be very near to the last use of the die.

[frank]

That's a serious cud, all right. Where did you get the die trial?

[Ian]

That's a serious cud, all right. Where did you get the die trial?

 

I bought both items from different sellers in France. I suspect that the rest of the world did not appreciate the significance of either of them when they were put up for sale.

[bill]

Ian: I remember the lead trail when it was up for auction and am pleased that you managed to land the item. That coupled with the jeton is a spectacular set. Congratulations. Have you tried any point by point comparisons on the two pieces to narrow down the question of whether it is the same die or if the die was altered before the actual striking of jetons. From other reading about dies in Paris at the time, I am struck by the fact that so many exhibit rust before going into service and how many begin to show cracks almost from the beginning. I suspect that you have a legitimate die test and late state pair.

[santa]

I have such counter. I think, simply souvenir for tourists.

[Ian]

I have such counter. I think, simply souvenir for tourists.

 

You would be VERY much mistaken in your assumption that the jeton you have presented was a souvenir produced for tourists.

 

My reference materials are packed away at this moment, but if i'm not mistaken that was a jeton produced for the the then mayor of Lyon (France) M'sieur De Hergues. Obverse legend reads `De la Prevost des Marchands de Mon(sieur) de Hergues'. The reverse shows the names and arms of the four Sherrifs (Eschevins) of Lyon. The jeton is in pretty good shape too.

[santa]

I thought so because have bought it on EbaY cheaply. Mark did on a counter at once or added later?

[Ian]

I thought so because have bought it on EbaY cheaply. Mark did on a counter at once or added later?

 

The counterstamp (fleur de lis) was definitely added post strike and indicates that it was used as currency, probably one sou, in the French Caribbean colonies (probably Guadeloupe or Haiti).

 

PS: I've had many extremely good bargains on ebay. Not everyone knows what it is they are selling .

[De Orc]

Great write up Ian, and I love the trial strike it is quite spectacular

[santa]

The counterstamp (fleur de lis) was definitely added post strike and indicates that it was used as currency, probably one sou, in the French Caribbean colonies (probably Guadeloupe or Haiti).

 

PS: I've had many extremely good bargains on ebay. Not everyone knows what it is they are selling .

Thanks for the helpful information

[santa]

Question and on this counter. Diameter of 42 millimeters, weight of 29.8 gram. A material to silver it is not similar, therefore it not a coin. What can it be?

[frank]

Standard size/weight for an écu au bandeau of Louis XV is 41 mm / 29.488 gr. according to Gadoury. Maybe it's counterfeit, although your recorded weight is very close. I can't quite make out the date, and the symbols of the director and engraver that go with the Perpignan (Q) mint mark don't seem to match up, although I may be wrong!

[santa]

I shall look date in the evening when I shall come back home. It seems 1739 or 1759. I have measured diameter approximately. Of what material them did?

[constanius]

Here's an interesting pair for the numismatists among us.

 

The first is a trial strike of the reverse die for a jeton issued in 1737 for the `Parties Casuelles' ( a section of the Kings administration). This die was engraved by Jean Duvivier for `La Monnaie' (Paris Mint). The design was only used once, and specifically for the Parties casuelles. As such there were probably less than two thousand of the actual jeton ever minted.

 

 

The second is an actual example of the silver jeton produced. The interesting thing about this one though is that it evidences that the die used in the strike was split. The large cud on the reverse, caused by metal being forced through the split at the time of striking, has obliterated much of the detail of the reverse design.

 

 

While I cannot be certain that the jeton was struck from the exact same die as the trial strike. The odds are fairly high. It is (at least to me) interesting to note an example from the `birth' of the die alongside one that must be very near to the last use of the die.

If you look at the far right mast on the trial strike it points to the rear of the E in QUIES, and the central mast is some distance from the R in SECURA. On the jeton the far right mast points to the front of the E, and the central mast is closer to the R. Also HIC starts at different distances from the tower, which has a rounded top to the entrance, whereas the jeton has a square top. There are a few other differences. A very interesting and historical pair, I would love to have them. Perhaps you would like to see My Trial Strike & Struck Medal Showing Work in Progress------P.S. I believe that the your trial strike is for a replacement die. The tower looks to be an improvement in design on the trial strike. I think that you have the death & begining of the rebirth of the jeton. that you now have the opportunuty to find a jeton matching exactly your trial strike, thus having a historical set of three from death through to rebirth.

[Ian]

If you look at the far right mast on the trial strike it points to the rear of the E in QUIES, and the central mast is some distance from the R in SECURA. On the jeton the far right mast points to the front of the E, and the central mast is closer to the R. Also HIC starts at different distances from the tower, which has a rounded top to the entrance, whereas the jeton has a square top. There are a few other differences. A very interesting and historical pair, I would love to have them. Perhaps you would like to see My Trial Strike & Struck Medal Showing Work in Progress------P.S. I believe that the your trial strike is for a replacement die. The tower looks to be an improvement in design on the trial strike. I think that you have the death & begining of the rebirth of the jeton. that you now have the opportunuty to find a jeton matching exactly your trial strike, thus having a historical set of three from death through to rebirth.

 

I agree with your assessment of the trial strike and the late strike example. There can't have been many dies made for that particular reverse. I haven't seen it used for any other jeton. As such you might be right concerning the trial being a trial of the second die, but then again the actual jeton has been struck using a die in its final death throws. It is difficult to assess what the early strikes might have looked like. However, you present a very well argued case and i do indeed keep a good lookout for other examples. Sadly the two I have are the only two I have ever seen (so far!)

 

Ian