Is Sweden related to Russia in any way?

[gxseries]

In the late 1700s, around 1770-1780s, Sweden enjoyed profiting from counterfeiting huge 5 kopek coins as copper prices in Russia was a bit overrated.

 

But what I am looking is the earlier history of Sweden and Russia. Perhaps back in 1714, there was a battle of the Swedish Navy versus. Peter I's new navy fleet, which is commemorated 200 years later as this particular coin:

 

 

(not a genuine coin - only for illustraton)

 

and on many other commemorative coins and medals.

 

More details about the Battle of Gangut can be read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gangut

 

The mystery is this: what sparked my interest between Sweden and Russia is actually from Rarenum's coin - see his post here: Link

 

Why was Swedish coins used? How were they obtained? When?

 

I believe the answer why is easy - simply because there was a lack of copper planchets or rather there wasn't decent technology to mine copper or refine copper to a massive volume required. How would be rather easy as it had to be the Russian navy that brought it back from the booty.

 

Now what is bothering me is when the coins were taken. Perhaps it might be from the Gangut battle when the Russian navy won the battle and took the Swedish booties. Here is a VERY interesting link and I highly recommand you to read: http://www.starsoft.fi/bothnia/skampaen.html

 

And here is a quote from the site that I find it most interesting:

 

Russian coins

A large number of Russian coins and also Swedish coins from the booty have been found at the investigated shipwreck sites, Svarthällan, Truthällan and Ryssberget. The fact that the vessels ran aground in shallow waters combined with the high rate of uplift thereafter (at least 250 cm) resulted in a considerable number of the objects being brought to daylight decades ago. What happened to them, though, we do not know. A substantial find of coins, consisting of about 600 Russian silver 'drop kopeks' made at Ryssberget in 1890 was catalogued and stored. In 1897, the Ostrobothnia Museum in Vaasa sent the find to the National Board of Antiquities, requesting their opinion on where the find ought to be kept. State archaeologist Johan Reinhold Aspelin replied on behalf of the National Board of Antiquities that "the above find is of no particular scientific value and will not be purchased by the state". The Ostrobothnia Museum, which had already bought the coins for its collection, got them back "until such time as the matter of buying the coins for the state can be brought up again" (PM Correspondence 1898).

The Russian 'drop' coins, which are still in the Ostrobothnia museum, date from the period between 1699 and 1712 and thus, like the other finds, support the theory that they come from the Russian offensive on the coast of Ostrobothnia in autumn 1714. The following list gives the dates, seals and number of the coins (PM Ryssberget, 'drop' kopek coins, bags 1-36):

 

only relevant parts translated!

 

denomination year ruler seal number

1 kopek Aleksei Mikhailovich

Ivan Alekseyevich

Peter the Great

 

after 1700

uncertain

Total

During the research currently under way, a leather purse containing 247 one kopek 'drop coins' was found at Svarthällan. These are at present being identified and restored, but it is likely that they date from the same years as coins of the old find at Ryssberget. The money was either for paying the seamen, as it was all of the same denomination, or then it could havesimply belonged to the men. The combined monetary value is not very great, however: the ruble, introduced in 1704, was worth 100 kopeks; the monthly pay of a seaman was then two rubles, which would make the 600 or so kopek coins found at Ryssberget the equivalent of three month's pay for a seaman and the Svarthällan find that of one month's pay. A first mate's monthly salary was 10 rubles, a captain's 25 and vice-admiral Apraxin's was about 200 rubles (Belik 1990, Sarvas 1990).

The Russians also had copper money at that time, but it had only recently come into use and was not as popular as silver money. Thus the Svarthällan finds of 1990 include only one Russian copper dengi (= ½ ruble) from 1704, the same year the first rubles were minted (PMK, the Närpiö report 1990).

 

Now this is VERY interesting. Copper wasn't just popular at that time! Well duh - copper coins were never too popular but the size of wire coins were painfully small. Perhaps the Swedish copper coins were only taken because it seemed to be some sort of novelties at that time. But when the overstrike occur? Probably 1757-1761 when modern 1 kopek coin featuring the emblem of Moscow was minted. The only reference I have come across so far was Dr. Spassky's image of an overstriked Swedish coin, but I don't remember there was more materials about it.

 

To top up the story - I just found another example that is awfully similar to Rarenum's example, i.e. the rotation of the overstriked layer and what is left from the underlying image. I will add the pictures tomorrow - I am still somewhat shocked.

 

Edited to add extra url and the illustration.

[Scottishmoney]

I would like to add an additional detail to this scenario, beginning in 1725-1726 Russia began trial strikes of plate money coins, very similar to the Swedish plate monies, though in small change denominations such as 5 Kopeks etc. In addition they went up to the ruble coin, but none were struck in significant quantities nor were they ever released for circulation.

 

These coins are noted by VV Uzdennikov in Russian Coins.

[gxseries]

Doh

 

I did forget about the idea of copper plates, which is definately before 1750s.

[Scottishmoney]

Despite the fact that Petr I was at war with Sweden for much of his reign, he didn't shy away from hiring into his ranks anybody whom he saw as a benefit to himself or Russia. For this reason, when Swedes were captured during the Great Northern War, many of them ended up in Petr I's employ. He was very very much concerned with the state of money in Russia, and his visit to England in 1698, and the Royal Mint and an undocumented but known meeting with Sir Isaac Newton offer proof of his concern for monetary matters.

 

It has been conjectured but documentation is not available to prove it, that some captured Swedes were employed in the Russian mint, which may have brought about the advent of more bronze coinage with improved knowledge of working with bronze and of minting techniques. Of course, in contemporary Sweden, plate money had been around for almost 80 years then. It is not thus far fetched to suggest a link.

[IgorS]

Why was Swedish coins used? How were they obtained? When?

 

I believe the answer why is easy - simply because there was a lack of copper planchets or rather there wasn't decent technology to mine copper or refine copper to a massive volume required. How would be rather easy as it had to be the Russian navy that brought it back from the booty.

 

Now what is bothering me is when the coins were taken.

 

Here is a link to a Russian auction - http://www.efimok.ru/viewlot.asp?id=937

They had a coin similar to RARENUMs in their recent auction. It brought about $225.

In the description they do not say where the Swedish coins came from, but they do say that Swedish coins were too large for a kopek, so they punched out the planchets of the size they needed and re-edged the planchets before re-striking them. It was still cheeper then producing new planchets. Interesting...

[Timofei]

Here is a link to a Russian auction - http://www.efimok.ru/viewlot.asp?id=937

They had a coin similar to RARENUMs in their recent auction. It brought about $225.

In the description they do not say were the Swedish coins came from, but they do say that Swedish coins were too large for a kopek, so they punched out the planchets of the size they needed and re-edged the planchets before re-striking them. It was still cheeper then producing new planchets. Interesting...

 

The treasury was buying pure copper for mint production. It might be that at some time the price of copper was higher than the denomination value on the Swedish Ore and the Ore coppers were traded just as a prime material- this is, I think, the simplest explanation.

 

I would say that this "Sweden conspiracy" theory has been bothering numismatists on different occasions. In one of the articles I read that Hedlinger, head-engraver of Sweden royal mint, was very interested in designing new pyatak to replace the cross-type - in order to get the feel and secrets for Sweden to make counterfeit pyataks in future

[gxseries]

Here is the image of which I bought:

 

 

Look out for the letter M. If you can't find it, here is a tip: look under the monogram or alternatively at Rarenum's coin.

 

And let's say we compare to an image of this, although I am not too sure if it is the original coin:

 

 

Image from http://ingemars.se/koppar.htm

 

It is almost undeniable that the original coin is indeed Swedish The only pitiful thing is that I am not too sure what the original year of the coin was or else it might have given more interesting details.