extant4cell Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 Do you know any TM coins with signs of overstrikes. I believe it was assumed that the first lot of 2 kopecks TM was overstruck from crossiform 5-kopecks. I think Vinkler wrote about this, and many others after him. Although nobody's ever seen any 2 kopecks with signs of overstrikes at all! May be someone has one somewhere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted July 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 Does it actually say anywhere in documents that 5-k coins were overstruck into 2-k TM coins, or only says that they were used to produce them (which may be that they were only a source of copper, and not exactly overstruck, but could have melted down to produce copper for the purpose of producing copper coins on TM mint. That kind of supported by the TM coins' surfaces: Here are some typical coins in reasonable condition: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted July 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 No signs of overstrikes seen anywhere, although a poor metal quality is evedent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 If the authors are talking about overdates of 1788 / 7, then yes, they do exist. However I really doubt if there was a need to overstrike. When I was looking into the history of overstrikes and thought TM played a role in overstriking, I did some research and had to think twice. Understandably in 1788 when SPB and MM were busy overstriking coins to get rid of the older circulating coins, I struggle to understand why there was a need to setup a brand new mint in Feodosia where it would have been cheaper to import coins from other regions. There could be examples of overstruck TM coins over the older Crimean coinage as the plachets were imported from Russia if I am not wrong. However I haven't seen any yet. This said, TM coins look kinda similar to coins struck in Sestroretsk mint - I just can't explain why. This could be a good place to start: http://en.museum-of-money.org/view/crimean-tatar_period_of_dependence_on_russia_1777_1783/ I suspect after Russia conquered Crimea in 1783, there might have been a strong need to set up a mint in Feodosia for propaganda purposes. Otherwise, why would there be a need to trial silver coinage that is unique to the Tauric mint? Why did it run for just couple of years? If it was too expensive and that was the reason for closure, why was it setup in the first place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 As far as I understand the mints in Crimea were created by Shahin Girey, and were already functional prior to the annexation by Russia. These mints were setup with the Russian assistance, and utilized a lot of equipment identical to the Russian mints. I think that Potemkin tried to continue using these existing mints, but it was too expensive to get the materials to them, so they were abandoned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted July 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 From what I read Shahin Giray has set up a new mist in Theodosia around 1780 and tried to modernize the one in Bahchesaray or around that time (I may not remember the date correctly). He used a 16 rouble's to a pud standard for coins (among others). He also asked Ekaterina for help with getting copper supply for his mint. One may hypothesize that TM mint was based on Theodosia Tatar's mint and used a lot of their equipment. Also, if Ekaterina II gave an order to collect older style coins on outskirts of the Empire originally for Shahin Giray, by 1787-1788 there could be enough coins to supply enough copper for the TM mint at a first stage until they figured out to buy copper from Turkey selling them salt and wheat. The military unrest with Turkey, brought the end to the TM mint as the copper supply became unreliable and it was risky to keep the mint so close to the enemy line. They sold the mint equipment for some 1.5 thousand roubles to the highest bidders. I don't know the fate of the dies, I guess they were sent back to SPB, where they were originally designed and provided from, in a first place. Silver trial series was there only for a show off, and was used by Potemkin to show Ekaterina II the production of the mint, in case she would agree to produce silver coins in a future, after her visit to Tauria (old Greek name for Krym). This information is sketchy at the best. Thank you for the link, it's interesting to see the coins of the Sultan, particular the larger ones! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 I could be wrong, but a while back I read somewhere that the Russians were using the Theodosia mint and the supplies they found there to strike the initial silver coins. I believe they also ran into problem procuring coal fro the mint. I also do not believe that the Tatars used the 16 rouble's to a pud standard. There was an thread on Staraya Moneta that went into some detail about that. In fact, for the Kyrmis coins there were 2 standards. There are Kyrmis coins with the ornate edge (leafs, sort of like Polish coins), they weigh something like 45 grams. Like this one that I have weighs 43.5: And then there are heavier rope edged coins, they weigh in at abut 60 grams. Like this one that I recently got, weighs 60.5 grams: I need to find that article, but as I recall the rope edge coins were the newer standard, and were distinguished from the old coins by the edge design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 I actually found the links! Should re-read myself, as it has been a while. Russian only, sorry: http://www.staraya-moneta.ru/forum/f%D0%BErum5/t%D0%BEpic23673/ http://www.staraya-moneta.ru/forum/messages/forum36/topic22754/message193385/?sphrase_id=545627#message193385 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted July 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2014 Some researcher think that Kyrmis is like 7 and 10 kopecks. The financial system was a mix of Turkish, Russian and other standards. That's not my opinion, I'm just passing what I've read. Their metal surface looks similar to TM 5 kopecks though. Not a new, but melted down copper with lots of other additions to it that didn't quite melted or simply burnt... I'll read the articles in the links a little later. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted July 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2014 Very similar Tatars and TM production: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted July 26, 2014 Report Share Posted July 26, 2014 I do only care for the 5 kopeks. I do not remember any TM overstrikes. My only one doesn't show any traces. Sigi - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted July 29, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2014 The only possible overstrikes that were "assumed to be" in existence we 5 cruciform-kopecks 1723-1730 (I've heard someone calling them "St.Andrew's Cross pyataki" not long ago, and I kind of like that name) into 2 kopecks TM. And that looks like a slim chance now as well, very slim indeed, as one can assume that they were used as a source of copper, and were simply melted down. Sigi, I am expecting this 5 kopecks in the mail now, the one I've shown earlier: hope it looks better in hand than on this picture... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted August 2, 2014 Report Share Posted August 2, 2014 I had to strip off the verdigris on this coin. This was previously cleaned and thought it would be better if I treated it before verdigris started to chew more off of the coin. Nevertheless, I am happy with it as I am struggling to upgrade this coin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted August 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2014 These are tough coins. I'll live and wait for the 2 kopecks TM to come along mu way one day... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beny87 Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beny87 Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 can you guys tell me if this one is worte any thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted October 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 modern fake... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beny87 Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 How can you tell it's fake? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted October 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 It screems all over... For a start read this topic and compair it to other coins: http://www.m-dv.ru/catalog/id,4411/prohod.html http://www.m-dv.ru/catalog/id,5973/prohod.html http://www.m-dv.ru/catalog/id,4413/prohod.html It always pays off compairing your coins to the ones on that site for a couple of days none stop... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beny87 Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 Thy our in good condition for thy year it's wired I agree but in the site you send thy olso simmaler conditions coins there like http://www.m-dv.ru/monety-rossii-1700-1917/prohod,6942/coins,4399/type,4413/auction,37/date,2009-01-24/lot,437/images-prohod.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beny87 Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 Thy our in good condition for thy year it's wired I agree but in the site you send thy olso simmaler conditions coins there like http://www.m-dv.ru/monety-rossii-1700-1917/prohod,6942/coins,4399/type,4413/auction,37/date,2009-01-24/lot,437/images-prohod.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 Your coin is new, you can see that. The coins extant4cell shows you are old, you can see that, too. 220 years ago the minting technique was not as advanced as today. Compare your coin to the pictures and you will get the feeling Sigi . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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