alexbq2 Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 As per my usual M.O., I mostly pay attention to the coins at hand. And I found something new, to me. I've had this coin for quite some time. An interesting coin with the incuse 'Ц' on the right hind leg of the horse. Not sure what that's all about, but we all know about this one. 1) Note that this coin has ornaments around the KO and an ornament above on the reverse, as well as 3 x's at the end of the inscription on the obverse. There are of course other variants of this coin without the 'Ц', but they have other ornamental combinations: 2) This one has the 3 x's, but no ornaments on the reverse 3) This one 2 x's and but has the reverse ornaments Getting to the point, I have recently found a coin without 'Ц', but with all the ornaments of the first coin: 4) I do not believe it is listed in Bitkin or the Konros base catalog. Adrianov does include this combination, but does not find it significant. I'm not sure that M-DV.ru has images of this one either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 I like it. Yusupov lists it as well (before Adreanov) but not as anything special. However, I think any coin with additional ornaments is always more desirable among collectors, when they choose a coins from a similar rarity... Particularly when a coin is with an interesting mark made by history, that makes it unique. Here is another one I have, with some mark on a horse. 2 kopecks 1763. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 I do not believe it is listed in Bitkin or the Konros base catalog. Adrianov does include this combination, but does not find it significant. I'm not sure that M-DV.ru has images of this one either. Here is from Yusupov: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted February 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2015 Here is from Yusupov: kopeck 1713.jpg I don't see it. Which number? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted February 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2015 I found a similar coin that was sold in 2009 at Fritz Rudolf Kuenker GmbH #150 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted February 9, 2015 Report Share Posted February 9, 2015 I don't see it. Which number?pic 2 and 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted February 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2015 pic 2 and 3. As far as I can see, those have the 'Ц' mark on the hind leg. The above coin, and the 4th coin from the 1st post do not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 What is the difference between the last coin you have shown and the one on pic 3 in Yusupov? Please tell me, I can not see any. Not that I am deep into collecting Peter I coins, but I simply don't see the difference in elements, they seam to be the same... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted February 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 What is the difference between the last coin you have shown and the one on pic 3 in Yusupov? Please tell me, I can not see any. Not that I am deep into collecting Peter I coins, but I simply don't see the difference in elements, they seam to be the same... Look at the coin below, it has the 'Ц' mark on the hind leg of the horse. And the coins with this arrangement of ornaments usually have that mark. I believe I see the mark in the Yusupov scan as well. But there is a coin with the same ornaments and without the 'Ц' mark. It might be scarcer than the one with the mark (not sure), but it is not described in Bitkin, and I am guessing that it is missing from VKGM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 As you know, only plates were assembled by Gil', there was no description left for this year. The plates have a few coins of the variety without mint letters. Two of them have the marks that you discovered. Now you need to figure out which variety you have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted February 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 As you know, only plates were assembled by Gil', there was no description left for this year. The plates have a few coins of the variety without mint letters. Two of them have the marks that you discovered. 1713 kopecks with mark vkgm.jpg Now you need to figure out which variety you have. As you can see both of the coins in your scan have the mark the 'Ц'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Yes, I only presented ones with the mark. There are a lot more examples with no mint letter, but with 3 stars, a funny looking mark above "KO" and with decorations to the sides of "KO" that have no marks. But these two are with "Ц" mark, and they must be different in some way... only one of them is alike your coin. VKGM was going to describe 2 varieties, but no description was given to the later years of Peter's role, as the second volume never was concluded and published, and I frankly don't see the difference. Could it be the edge, we can only speculate, or can you see any other differences? If Bitkin didn't describe "Ц" marked coins as a variety, he didn't realise the mark was there and has down-sized the list of coins from VKGM plates in his catalog. That's why I find VKGM - one of the main sources of info, apart from specialized catalogs, particularly in these years that miss description. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted February 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 The coin that I am referring to (#4 1st post) is not in VKGM. Here's the full plate: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Got it now. Yes, the same coin without a mark is missing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted February 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Anyone got any 1713s n/mm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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