STEVE MOULDING Posted May 21, 2013 Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 Unless...of course...these are different photos of the same coin (which I think they're not). So, I think you're right Sigi (and Ex also points out that folks at other forums say they're different) but you do have to look pretty hard to see any differences and convince yourself it's not the same coin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted May 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 Unless...of course...these are different photos of the same coin (which I think they're not). So, I think you're right Sigi (and Ex also points out that folks at other forums say they're different) but you do have to look pretty hard to see any differences and convince yourself it's not the same coin. Steve, it is definitely not the same coin. There are some minim differences, for example the rim detail on "my" coin (below), which is missing at "Eugene's" coin. There are others, as the cuts in the cypher of "Eugene's" coin, missing with "mine". Sigi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted May 21, 2013 Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 Yes, I saw that too. It was that stuff on the rim that first convinced me they were different. Good eye Sigi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted May 21, 2013 Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 Unless...of course...these are different photos of the same coin (which I think they're not). Not the same coin, but cast from the same molds -- similar bubbles left of the crown, a raised spot to the right of the eagle's right wing (from the observer's perspective) and suspicious marks below the "K" and "M" just at the top edge of the scrollbar. The one under the "K" looks like a die crack, except that we now know that these "coins" were not produced by striking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted May 21, 2013 Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 I think it was worth researching and making a fool out of myself, if we got the the bottom of it at the end. It looks like a forgery for circulation to me, or is it a fake to fool collectors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsraghead Posted May 22, 2013 Report Share Posted May 22, 2013 I vote it was for circulation. Both of them have different wear patterns from changing hands and pockets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted May 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 It looks like a forgery for circulation to me, or is it a fake to fool collectors? Forgeries for circulation did appear with silver and gold coins. The precious metal was substituted by some other - cheaper - metal. With copper coins forgeries would only happen, when the denomination was much higher than the market price of the copper used for the coin. The 5 kopeks of 1723-1730 are an example. Their weight was not 5fold the weight of the kopeks of the time but much less. The metal value was much less than 5 kopeks. As a result those 5 kopek (chrestovik) pieces were massively counterfeited, which led to their devaluation and finally to restriking them into 2kopek coins from 1757 on. Our 2 coins above contained a quantity of copper of the market value of more or less their denomination. Nobody would have got the idea to counterfeit them for circulation - metal worth 5 kopeks would have to be used to counterfeit a 5 kopek coin - there was no profit to be made. Our two coins above are modern forgeries for the coin market. They are extremely dangerous because they look right - were there not the edge. Sigi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted May 25, 2013 Report Share Posted May 25, 2013 Thank you Sigi, this is very insightful! Keep them as modern copies from originals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsraghead Posted May 25, 2013 Report Share Posted May 25, 2013 You know, I never thought about the cost of the copper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted May 25, 2013 Report Share Posted May 25, 2013 With real collectable coins, it's not a metal, but rarity that makes up the value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsraghead Posted May 25, 2013 Report Share Posted May 25, 2013 Yep. I'm not in the practice of thinking melt value, just how much I want it and how much I'm willing to pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsraghead Posted May 25, 2013 Report Share Posted May 25, 2013 Yep, I dont think about melt value, just what I'm willing to pay to get what I want Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsraghead Posted May 25, 2013 Report Share Posted May 25, 2013 If I want it badly enough I will pay more than market value. I don't collect for investment, but instead for enjoyment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted May 25, 2013 Report Share Posted May 25, 2013 It has started out like that for me too, but i discovered the auctions and forums... And my life balancing hobby became an obsission. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsraghead Posted May 25, 2013 Report Share Posted May 25, 2013 I understand. But for me right now, love of the coin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve D'Ippolito Posted May 26, 2013 Report Share Posted May 26, 2013 I understand. But for me right now, love of the coin Yep. Definitely one of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsraghead Posted May 26, 2013 Report Share Posted May 26, 2013 LOL!!!! Ok, I admit it I'm an addict. Give me more!! Give me more!!!! LOL!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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