extant4cell Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 http://rucoin.ru/for...=post&id=127466 - 1764 CM (small lettering) 5 Kopecks. Anyone knows about any similar coins going through auctions? I just bought this one and would like to research it more. It's not in a very great shape, but it will do me for now. The only auction sale I could find was this one over 7 years ago (is it that rare?): http://www.mcsearch....rd.html?id=6680 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 Hi Eugene, small letters are normal for 1764. Note that on your 2nd link the "CM" mintmark is recut from "СПМ". That's why the "C" is so far to the left. In my collection (link below) is a similar 1764CM Sigi - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted December 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 I had a feeling it will interest you Sigi ... I wish it was in a better condition though... Yes, you are absolutely right the 2nd link is to "СПМ" recut (my mistake) with П taken out, you have one of them in your collection. I found auction sales for original CM now: http://www.m-dv.ru/c...243/prohod.html ... by the way, I found another sale link to one you have as well, a pretty amazing auction too: http://www.efimok.ru...velot42130.html it went over 1000 USD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 i saw topic-starter's this exact coin on ebay for sale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted December 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 It was there. Not any more. Sold for under 90 USD incl delivery. That's what I gathered so far: Original с.м. not found on http://www.mcsearch.info .This is the only coin in similar condition I found sold on auction in the last 3 years: http://www.m-dv.ru/monety-rossii-1700-1917/prohod,51230/coins,3145/type,4243/auction,49/date,2010-10-21/lot,463/images-prohod.html ... There were 3 sales this year of coins in F. Price is around $300 ... Here is a description of this coin in Russian: 5 копеек 1764 Буквы "СМ" меньше, бант меньше. Биткин # 599 ®, Узденников ( ) , Петров нет руб. , Ильин нет руб. As far as I understand from analyzing this coin (correct me if I'm wrong) original "см" (small) 1764, with "м" narrowing at the top (there are versions with straight "м") - is the most rare version of these 5 kopeks in years from 1764 to 1766. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 Eugene, that is becoming very interesting I had not gone into that depth so far. I see now that, yes indeed, what you found is a rare variant and you got it cheap, congratulations. Brekke had just one 5kop1764CM in his collection, it happens to be your type (as to ribbon and small mintmark) but with straight M. The Aalborg copper collection (sold in 4 sections in Copenhagen as Russia I, II, III and IV a few year ago) contained also only one 5kop1764CM, ribbon like yours, small CM, M slanting but with the C somewhat more remote from the eagle's tail. Yusupov lists 4 variants of the 5kop1764CM. As I am not sure about copyright, I'll send you a PM. Happy hunting! Sigi - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Here is mine, guys. I am wracking my brain to remember where i bought it... possibly WAG Very interesting about the variants, including the different "M" dies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 ...Brekke had just one 5kop1764CM in his collection, it happens to be your type (as to ribbon and small mintmark) but with straight M. The Aalborg copper collection (sold in 4 sections in Copenhagen as Russia I, II, III and IV a few year ago) contained also only one 5kop1764CM, ribbon like yours, small CM, M slanting but with the C somewhat more remote from the eagle's tail. Yusupov lists 4 variants of the 5kop1764CM.... Thank you for the facts Sigi! Waiting for your ref. from Yusupov I am not sure if we are on something here or not and someone probably had researched this before, but I haven't come accross this yet. It's easy when you have Interenet and can look through many images of a coin variant in order to "find the Wally" (something different that you are after) and than classify it. I am glad I noticed this though. I also noticed, as you point out that in some small CM's of this year (not recuts from SPM, but the original CM mint) some C-s stay further away from the eagle's tale. Not sure of the rarity of any of them (Uzdenikov doesn't classify them very well), but here is an extract from the old 2009 Konros catalog that shows that small CMs in 1764 were somewhat rare. Have no idea what they based this on, probably on previous sales: Here is mine, guys. I am wracking my brain to remember where i bought it... possibly WAG Very interesting about the variants, including the different "M" dies! ... You have exactly the type we are talking about. I love it's colour! Here is mine a little closer: and its M variant I wonder what is the rarity of M (stright) compare to M (narrowed at the top)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Just some additional information, that doesn't answer the question posed, but may be interesting for general knowledge. On Russian forum (CFN) one of the collectors who studied CM and СПМ coins of this and other years has classified 5 kopecks CM 1764 as follows: 1) CM small / small bow (more common) - no further classification given 2) CM large eagle '63 / small bow (rare) 3) CM small / large bow transmitter. of 63 year (infrequent) 4) CM small / big bow (infrequent) 5) CM small eagle Dacier / small bow (very rare) 6) CM / СПМ long tail / small bow (infrequent) 7) CM / СПМ tail chopped off / small bow (infrequent) 8) CM / СПМ tail chopped off. / Large bow (very rare) 9) СM special small eagle / small. Bow (rare) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted December 11, 2012 Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 That is very important information. There must be an inimaginable wealth of such material in Russia, allowing people to compare to such extent. Thank you Eugene for sharing . Sigi - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted December 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 This is an empirical knowledge, based on someone's experience and analysis of literature, sales, and coins in private collections shared with this guy as far as I know... He didn't explain much as he didn't like I questioned him, but I did a little digging around the topics and could see that there were a few topics discussed previously there to do with СПМ and СМ 5 kopecks. Still, it is an empirical knowledge that can be argued as it contradicts let's say Konros 2009 ( ) , but again, who knows what Konros based their classification on (?)... However, in his classifications there are 4 classes with small CM with 3 of them being infrequent or rare (not my coin), and one "common" (my coin) collectively making small CM coins infrequent, with mine being the most common. This would explain Konros's classification and makes it believable. This can be argued and argued and will end up with who trust who more, in other words, on persosnal preference. I personally don't know how much he researched this particular type and what he based his assumptions on, in order for me to agree or to disagree, but as I said, it makes it believable and I tent to agree with him more than disagree. He couldn't comment on two "M" variants, it looks like this didn't get under anyone's radar so far, but it doesn't make a new class of CM 1764, rather a subclass of what he believes is a common type, so that may have to be still researched if anyone is interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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