Odd 1829 kopek

[grivna1726]

Here are some scans of a strange 1829 kopek from my collection.

 

The coin seems to have an overdate and maybe new mintmaster initials as well.

 

I am not sure about this and wondered what the copper experts here might have to say about it.

 

I think that the possible overdate is 1829/5 (?) and the mintmaster initials are ИК/ПС (if that is possible).

 

Other digits in the date (particularly the "1") look like they have been repunched.

 

Even the wreath looks rather odd, especially between 7 o'clock and 9 o'clock.

 

Thanks in advance for your input.

 

[alexbq2]

I can't quite tell from the pictures, but I will guess that this could be an overdate from 1824 with initials ПГ or 1823 with ФГ. The reverse has die-clash damage. The element between 7-9 o'clock is the imprint from the low area between the orb and the wing.

[grivna1726]

I can't quite tell from the pictures, but I will guess that this could be an overdate from 1824 with initials ПГ or 1823 with ФГ. The reverse has die-clash damage. The element between 7-9 o'clock is the imprint from the low area between the orb and the wing.

Hello Alex, and thank you for your reply.

 

You are correct about the die clash near the wreath. Once I imagine the raised part as incused and the depressed part as in relief, then it is clear that this is the outlines of the eagle's wings, and the clashing is severe.

 

What is odd is that there seems to be little, if any, clashing on the other side of the coin. It is hard to understand this unless this is a replacement die for the one that clashed so much with the denomination die. Perhaps the clashing eagle die was just too deteriorated to use any more (it seems dies were used until they wore out or fell apart). What seems odd to me is that an 1823-5 die would be retired from use for several years and then pressed back into service in 1829.

 

I'm not sure what happened with the date and mintmaster initials. The "1" is obviously repunched, the "9" is a mess & I'm not sure what is under it. It could be almost anything.

 

I think it is a "П" under the "И", but it could easily be a "Г" or even an "Ф" as you suggest. I thought it was an "С" under the "К" but it could easily be a "Г" as you suggest.

 

I have seen overdates before and people here have posted reworked mintmarks, so it makes sense that new mintmaster initials would exist as well (although I don't recall seeing any, but I'm not a variety specialist so maybe I just never noticed).

 

Once again, thank you for your comments!

[alexbq2]

It seems that on most coins with signs of a die clash only one side shows damage. It might be possible that either the other die would crack and be replaced, or that only the softer die would get an imprint, while the other die would not be damaged. At least that’s what I’ve been told

 

Here’s one of my coins from that period:

http://www.omnicoin.com/coins/947425.jpg

 

And the initials of the mint master would most definitely be recut if a die was reused with a new date under a new mint master.

[grivna1726]

It seems that on most coins with signs of a die clash only one side shows damage. It might be possible that either the other die would crack and be replaced, or that only the softer die would get an imprint, while the other die would not be damaged. At least that’s what I’ve been told

 

I have always assumed that both the hammer and the anvil die would be equally hardened & can't think of any reason why they wouldn't be. (Note to Rittenhouse: if you are reading in here, your comments are invited.)

 

I have an 1841 5 roubles with heavy clashing. I checked the scan I have on the hard drive and the clashed traces of the eagle are quite noticeable. However, the eagle side does not show similar clashing, although that die was clearly deteriorating.

 

So it seems the eagle die was harder than the denomination die (assuming that these dies were always paired together).

 

Here’s one of my coins from that period:

http://www.omnicoin.com/coins/947425.jpg

 

And the initials of the mint master would most definitely be recut if a die was reused with a new date under a new mint master.

Very interesting. In this case, the eagle die appears to be the softer die. Interestingly, it seems that your coin might have been struck more than once (3 times?), judging by the circle(s) around the eagle. The clashed image of the large crown from the other side of the coin is immediately noticeable and it is an attractive example.