hiho Posted September 9, 2008 Report Share Posted September 9, 2008 I have owned over 50 Dutch ducats over the years and kept about half that many. But I never owned a double ducat until now. They were too expensive and I was always outbid. As far as I can tell this is authentic (it's the right weight and the details are correct) and in very good condition, XF if not AU. It also looks like it may have been a presentation piece due to the unusually round planchet and the better than average strike. It's perfectly flat (many ducats were wavy from use) and I don't think it's been cleaned, but I may be wrong. I'll be sending it to NGC soon to find out their opinion. I would welcome any comments on this coin. Especially whether or not it's ever been cleaned. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
constanius Posted September 9, 2008 Report Share Posted September 9, 2008 Absolutely Stunning!!! Great addition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostDutchman Posted September 9, 2008 Report Share Posted September 9, 2008 i love it.... absolutely love it.. and from those pictures i don't think it has been cleaned too harshly to be graded... that red is gold toning... very nice... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiho Posted September 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2008 Thanks for the positive comments guys, I think I'll enjoy it for awhile before it goes to NGC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiho Posted November 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2008 The seller has agreed to a refund, minus his fees. I'm still sad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlueke Posted November 29, 2008 Report Share Posted November 29, 2008 May I ask which auction service you bought this on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
constanius Posted November 29, 2008 Report Share Posted November 29, 2008 The seller could well have been fooled himself, that is a 10 out of 10 fake. At least he has agreed to a partial refund. Better luck next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedeadpoint Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 Here's a good question that may spark debate: What qualifications did the third party graders have that you guys don't have? i.e. what tools in their arsenal do they have that tells them its fake while so many people here think its authentic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 Here's a good question that may spark debate: What qualifications did the third party graders have that you guys don't have? i.e. what tools in their arsenal do they have that tells them its fake while so many people here think its authentic? Maybe they have a specialist consultant? Or maybe the edge is wrong? I don't know a lot about these coins, but this one doesn't scream "fake!" at me when I look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiho Posted November 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 Maybe they have a specialist consultant? Or maybe the edge is wrong? I don't know a lot about these coins, but this one doesn't scream "fake!" at me when I look at it. I bought this on eBay from an American seller with perfect feedback. It didn't scream "fake" to me either but I had my doubts. It's just too perfectly round and flat. These double ducats are almost NEVER flat. And I have never seen one this round. I trust NGC for the most part. And whatever I lost (A little over $100) I'll chalk up to education. Call it Coin College... I'll survive. But if you see one like it on eBay, be careful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
constanius Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 I guess the ducat being flat could have been a giveaway, as I believe they were made using roller dies and as a consequence were bent/wavy. 'Old World Coin Presses Created Bent Coins' from Professional Coin Grading Service. 'The other type of coining machine was the roller press. Several die impressions were cut on a pair of rollers and a strip of coin metal passed between them as they turned. The resulting strip of coins was then taken either to a punch press, where the coins were punched off the strip, or the coins were punched out by hand. At a time when each blank had to be placed by hand on the anvil die of a standard press, and then removed by hand, the roller press provided a significant savings in time. A corollary result of the roller process was a tendency to produce coins with a curvature along one axis. This made them a bit difficult to stack, which was a definite drawback. This feature was pronounced on the Salzburg coin that bothered my client. One will even find on occasion what appears to be a double bend. Usually this will be on larger, thicker coins such as half thalers. The feature is explained as either a kink in the smooth turning of the rollers or else a deliberate act of the mint worker, who, seeing a not very well struck coin coming out, backed up the rollers to try again' You can see the full article here LINK TO PROFESSIONAL COIN GRADING SERVICES Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiho Posted December 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 Here's a good question that may spark debate: What qualifications did the third party graders have that you guys don't have? i.e. what tools in their arsenal do they have that tells them its fake while so many people here think its authentic? Excellent question. In the end it's just a matter of opinion. Many of the people on this forum possess the same knowledge as the professional graders, but they grade everyday and probably see more coins than we do. Place this coin next to a few genuine double ducats and the difference is probably night and day. Again, education is expensive but worth the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiho Posted December 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 I guess the ducat being flat could have been a giveaway, as I believe they were made using roller dies and as a consequence were bent/wavy. 'Old World Coin Presses Created Bent Coins' from Professional Coin Grading Service. 'The other type of coining machine was the roller press. Several die impressions were cut on a pair of rollers and a strip of coin metal passed between them as they turned. The resulting strip of coins was then taken either to a punch press, where the coins were punched off the strip, or the coins were punched out by hand. At a time when each blank had to be placed by hand on the anvil die of a standard press, and then removed by hand, the roller press provided a significant savings in time. A corollary result of the roller process was a tendency to produce coins with a curvature along one axis. This made them a bit difficult to stack, which was a definite drawback. This feature was pronounced on the Salzburg coin that bothered my client. One will even find on occasion what appears to be a double bend. Usually this will be on larger, thicker coins such as half thalers. The feature is explained as either a kink in the smooth turning of the rollers or else a deliberate act of the mint worker, who, seeing a not very well struck coin coming out, backed up the rollers to try again' You can see the full article here LINK TO PROFESSIONAL COIN GRADING SERVICES The same condition applies to the gold Swiss quarter and half ducats. Almost every one I have seen/owned are wavy. I sent five off to NGC once and believe it or not, all five came back bagged and tagged BENT. Well duh, ya think? Face it, coin collecting requires infinite patience and a sense of humor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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