Ian Posted December 7, 2006 Report Share Posted December 7, 2006 This one is a first for me. It's the first ever white metal octagonal jeton i've ever come across, and i've never seen another since. It was sold to me a couple of years ago as being `silver', so I was a bit disappointed at the time but I kept it anyway because for me it is a bit unusual.....and I haven't a clue as to its history or why `whitemetal' was used. The obverse bears the bust and titles of Charles Alexandre Duke of Lorraine and Governor of Belgium. The reverse bears the legend "Bruxellae Areis et aedificiis Auctae et ornatae MDCCLXXVIII". In otherwords, something to do with Brussels in 1778. I haven't been able to establish anything beyond that. If anyone has a reference for it or any other information they can provide, i'd appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elverno Posted December 7, 2006 Report Share Posted December 7, 2006 Mitchiner says "Charles Alexander issued jetons as Prefect of the Belgians from 1755 until 1778. He died in 1780." Jetons, Medalets & Tokens, Vol. II, p. 905 but he doesn't show this one. It might be listed in Feuardent some where around 14352 but that's a reference I don't have... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted December 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2006 Mitchiner says "Charles Alexander issued jetons as Prefect of the Belgians from 1755 until 1778. He died in 1780." Jetons, Medalets & Tokens, Vol. II, p. 905 but he doesn't show this one. It might be listed in Feuardent some where around 14352 but that's a reference I don't have... Yep. That plus a few paragraphs on the web is about as far as I got. CGB.fr had a couple of silver jetons for Charles Alex. in their catalogues (Monnaies VII in particular), but no sign of my one or anything in whitemetal. Mitchiner is currently the best there is in some respects, especially when it comes to providing an insight as to the raison d'etre for `jetons'. While he provides a fair overview as to the cultural background and technical aspects of their composition, the descriptions of individual pieces are a bit too spartan and there seems to be more than just a few jetons missing from his work. I disposed of my copy of Feuardent because it didn't provide much more than a listing of jetons. Having said that his listings appear to be far more comprehensive than Mitchiner. I would still be surprised (pleasantly) to find that this particular jeton is listed in it. Maybe Bill will open up his Feuardent and check..... (?) Does Bramsen cover stuff like this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted December 7, 2006 Report Share Posted December 7, 2006 Maybe Bill will open up his Feuardent and check..... (?) Will try to remember to do so this evening when I get home. My youngest daughter moved out to her first place of her own and I've started recreating my home office. How nice to have everything in one place, in reach, and a desk to work at once again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elverno Posted December 7, 2006 Report Share Posted December 7, 2006 Bramsen starts with the Consulate, he said that Hennin had handled the Revolution so well he didn't see any point in duplicating it. Hennin is fine but I've found at least 50 pieces he didn't list. I found your piece in deCoster at #863 listed as Agrandissement et Embellissements de Bruxelles. The reverse he describes as Compas et autres instruments de mesurage derriere une corne d'abondance. He also says that the piece was engraved by Van Berckel. Theodore Victor Van Berckel gets six pages in Forrer and was the Engraver-General for the Austrian Netherlands beginning September 29, 1776. I didn't see this piece specifically in his medals and jetons listings though several others for Charles of Lorraine are there from about 1776 to his memorial piece in 1780. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted December 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2006 Bramsen starts with the Consulate, he said that Hennin had handled the Revolution so well he didn't see any point in duplicating it. Hennin is fine but I've found at least 50 pieces he didn't list. I found your piece in deCoster at #863 listed as Agrandissement et Embellissements de Bruxelles. The reverse he describes as Compas et autres instruments de mesurage derriere une corne d'abondance. He also says that the piece was engraved by Van Berckel. Theodore Victor Van Berckel gets six pages in Forrer and was the Engraver-General for the Austrian Netherlands beginning September 29, 1776. I didn't see this piece specifically in his medals and jetons listings though several others for Charles of Lorraine are there from about 1776 to his memorial piece in 1780. You certainly know your stuff mate! Thanks for the reference sources + info. It gives me something to go on. The description in deCoster is spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted December 8, 2006 Report Share Posted December 8, 2006 Yes, I had to cut some more pages in Feuardent, volume 3, F. 14355. The jeton is listed in silver. No other entries. No additional information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted December 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2006 Yes, I had to cut some more pages in Feuardent, volume 3, F. 14355. The jeton is listed in silver. No other entries. No additional information. Thanks Bill. That's just about what I expected as a `best scenario' from Feuardent. Let's you know that something just like it is known.... but then leaves you right there. But hey...now i've got two different references for the piece. I'm doing well Old books that have not had their pages cut convey the feeling that you are unwrapping knowledge itself. Two years ago I was gifted a copy of `Lettres a M. Ch. Dugast-Matifeu sur quelques Monnaies Francaises Inedites', by Benjamin Fillon, (printed in 1853 by J.-B. Dumoulin, Libraire de L'Ecole des Chartes, 15 Quai des Augustins). The pages were all totally uncut (therefore unread). There can't be all that many copies left out there. I struggled for a few weeks as to whether I should even cut the pages! It felt so `criminal'....but i did.. The letters (essays) cover previously unrecorded coins ranging from the Merovingian period through to feudal, along with plates of the coins being discussed. I'd presume that these `unrecorded' coins have long since been included in someones catalogue.....but you never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted December 9, 2006 Report Share Posted December 9, 2006 Old books that have not had their pages cut convey the feeling that you are unwrapping knowledge itself. I struggled for a few weeks as to whether I should even cut the pages! It felt so `criminal'....but i did.. A book with uncut pages is an object for collecting, the information useless until released. I realize some value the object as an object, but a book was meant to be used in my humble opinion. Feuardent in particular has no value sealed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted December 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2006 A book with uncut pages is an object for collecting, the information useless until released. I realize some value the object as an object, but a book was meant to be used in my humble opinion. Feuardent in particular has no value sealed! I have to agree. I found it impossible for me to justify keeping the book I mentioned `unopened'. I'm just not a collector of `objects' I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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