Goetzdude

Info on these and other Goetz patterns can be found here; http://www.karlgoetz.com/AlbumGallery.aspx?IdAlbum=25

The later albums (k-352 to 356) are still being populated so you might see some missing data.

Provenance: The KarlGoetz.com Collection

Goetz Pattern Proof as it appears left, and angled to capture toning, right.

I've got a set of beautiful purple/lavender toned copper Patterns (2.3.10, 20 Marks) in NGC slabs and this unslabbed 5 Mark which has the same coloring to complete the set.

Lighter center on both sides is lack of toning from resting in cushioned box for 99 years. Slight mark at bottom appears to be a minting/planchet flaw.

Your grade opinion is appreciated.

Karl Goetz 3 Mark Bavarian Pattern shot under three different angles of light. The piece is far more impressive in hand.

Goetzdude,

 

do you have any idea on a birth medal on Stefan (Stephan) van Wien?

I have checked the Kienast, but I have not found anything.

But it could be that any other Munich artist has produced this medal.

Let us try to find out, whether there is another medal on the van Wien children.

I have already checked the work of Dasio and the publication of Heidemann (DGMK Vol 8, 1998, Medaillenkunst in Deutschland von 1895 bis 1914 (Art medals in Germany from 1895 to 1914)) with about 1300 medals from that time.

I have found nothing, but I will contact different museums on that.

No, I am not aware of any birth medal for Stefan. It's always possible that Goetz made one or two and they somehow were not recorded along with his other works, or, if Goetz was involved, perhaps the family may have bought a stock birth medal for engraving.

You've saved me from digging through my Heidemann and Dasio books but I can still look through Hörnlein's and Schwegerle's for information. I don't think it is likely I'll find anything but it'll be fun to go through the books anyway...it's been a while.

Yes, very good news indeed! Boy, we would have had a serious problem trying to find out information about her Aunt Johanna, eh? China, Australia, California, and Arizona? Just like a movie it seems.

I will make sure that I include all the information when I create the HTML page for K-65 on my web site. This has got to be interesting to the casual reader of what history can unfold by collecting medals.

Thank you again Research5......and good work!

S

Oh, not 70?

Research 5, Thank you so much for the added information!!! So it is likely that Johnna arrived in the U.S., very good news indeed.

Unfortunately I do not have a membership with ancestory.com and it is unlikely I will since I would use it very little. I am hoping that Scottishmoney will pop in with his help very soon.

You live up to your name, that's for sure...

Also, How odd that your post was made seventy years to the day of the passenger list's date.

I noticed that the link to the medal image was toast so I have relinked the image in the first post and this one. Enjoy

Welcome back Research5 !!

It appears you have done a fine job on the Van Wien birth medal article. Unfortunately I will need to wait for the English version before I can absorb more of the content. I am hoping that someone will contact you after seeing the article to tell you something more about the family and what happened to them.

As I keep hounding over on another forum, this is exactly what collecting is all about...or should be, and I love how one fact leads you to a new path of research much like a scavanger hunt....the prize being the knowledge that we gain.

Please post more often Research5, you have been missed.

Scottishmoney....have you had the chance to dig into the immigration sites/locations for additional information regarding Johanna van Wien?

(it's raining here today which has allowed me a free day form my exterior house painting project )

I have heard about the SS St. Louis, but I did not know the name of the ship.

This of course was used by the nazis for their propaganda to convince simple minded people, that what they are doing is right.

Anti-Semitism is a long story and sometimes supported by the Christian church.

After the WW II the catholic church helped Christian people to emigrate to South America, not asking whether they were nazis or not. But no Jew was supported at that time.

The conflict between the Christian church and the Jewish church is based on the fact that the Jews have murdered Jesus Christ.

 

Still today in Germany the Christian church maintains their privilege that together with the tax the "church tax" is automatically collected by the Government based on the concordat signed by Pius XII and the nazis.

 

But back to the family van Wien. I am going to Munich mid of August.

There are several points in Munich where I am going to investigate on the van Wien family. I hope to bring more details in the coming weeks.

Good luck in Munich Research5! I wish I was visiting there...I'd love to see Goetz' old house, Goetz' grave, the Bayerisches National Museum, and several dealer friends near by. I am hoping to make it back over again soon...it's been three years since my last visit to Germany!

We'll await word from you Research%

And that is pretty incomplete when you consider all the places they could have came in, for instance Miami was a destination back then also, and featured prominently in the infamous SS St. Louis episode in 1939.

I am ashamed to admit that I had never heard this story before. A quick synopsis can be found here.

I have to question the 'children' traveling with their mother unless they were escorting her. Both in their late 20's, and Johanna married, it would seem to me that they would be worried about their own new families and relationships too.

PS. Thanks Drusus...every medal has a story and that is why they are so fascinating. You'll learn something new every day if you collect them. We are so lucky to be living in the information age of the internet too.

Yeah, but that is just Ellis Island. So far I have checked ancestry.com, and familysearch.org and not come up with anything. Having done my own genealogy for years, you find that you will often hit a wall and then later on something else will come along in the form of a idea etc.

 

But I am going to go in and search with variations on the name, see post above about names being mispelt, and being changed either by the immigrants or by immigration officials.

Yes, I'm aware of the naming problems...

Ancestry.com does have other immigration records...

New York Passenger Lists, 1820-1957 - Updated!

Baltimore Passenger Lists, 1820-1948

Boston Passenger Lists, 1820-1943

Canadian Border Crossings, 1895-1956 - New!

California Passenger and Crew Lists, 1893-1957 - Updated!

New Orleans Passenger Lists, 1820-1945

Philadelphia Passenger Lists, 1800-1945

Passenger & Immigration Lists Index, 1500s - 1900s - Updated!

I'm just not a paying member

Dear friends of Goetz medals,

 

I have investigated the dates of Johanna van Wien at the town archive of Munich.

I have received a copy of her declaration of birth and of her marriage with Dr. Kurt Willi Bauer.

Johanna van Wien was the daughter of Ferdinand and Mathilde van Wien.

She had an older brother named Stephan van Wien.

 

Therefore the two letters on the sails of the sailing boat are clear: these are the insignia of Johanna and Stephan.

 

The second younger brother of Johanna, this was Bertram following the declaration of birth. On the medal he was called Bertrand, maybe the French version of the German Bertram. A medal on his birth can be found on Kienast 64. He died already in an age of two years.

In Kienast part II there is a remark on Opus 64: The letters S, J and B on the reverse are the initials of the first names of the van Wien children.

Now we know more: These are Stephan, Johanna and Bertram or Bertrand.

 

Ferdinand van Wien was murdered by the nazis in Dachau on 14/11/1938.

In September 1939 Mathilde van Wien was able to emigrate together with her children Stephan and Johanna to the USA.

 

With his two medals on Johanna van Wien and Bertrand van Wien Karl Goetz has made not only two great pieces but a memorial for the family van Wien.

I have searched the Ellis Island database for every spelling variation of Van Wien offered and found nothing. I tried the mother and the children seperately too and still nothing. Even tried looking for Johanna Bauer with no luck. Although this isn't a difinitive outcome I am beginning to think they never made it out of Germany as Research5 has suggested. I will continue looking however,,,I hope we can find a happier ending.

I am descended from Volga Germans...they emmigrated to Russia in 1740 to farm wheat and then a few came here to the U.S. in 1918 to escape the Russian revolutions. I visited the two villages they founded just south of Saratov, Russia shortly after the wall came down. They were from the Fulda Germany vicinity originally and a few descendants from Russia returned to the area after the wall came down...I have yet to meet them though.

I didn't find anything on Ancestry, but I will also try the LDS site at familysearch.com. They often have better information.

 

BTW you are lucky to have your German ancestry so far back, so far I have my German ancestry back to 1685 only. Mostly from Bavaria, but also Hamburg. Germany is the only country I have been to where my ancestors came from and I visited the actual area and walked the dock in Hamburg that the ship left from etc. They have very good research centres there, and I found that not even speaking a lot of German I got pretty far with helpful people there.

Scottishmoney...Thanks....and good, you have an ancestry.com account. I couldn't justify the membership fee because I already know about my heritage back to 1520 Germany. It appears that there were many other ports that the 'second wave' of immigration used with the breakout of WWII. Ancestry.com has links to those port archives too. Research5 has provided the mother's birthdate so this may help a lot. Good luck, and thanks again.

If memory serves correct, Ellis Island was last used in 1954. Also please account for the fact that they often misspelled names if they thought they heard something different etc. A few people that think they are Irish are in fact German, because they were made to change their names to something more likely to be easy to pronounce. One of my German ancestors family names is Crantzdorf, from Bavaria, their name changed to Grindstaff, but probably because they changed it to a literal translation of the name into English.

 

I am going to check my Ancestry.com account and see if I can find anything on this family too.

I think I have a picture if you can't come up with one research5. The one you posted seems nice enough though.

I have begun to see if the Van Wien's came through Ellis Island when she and her two children arrived in the U.S.. The Ellis Island web site doesn't find them in their registery database but many mistakes in the recording of passenger names were made at the time of arrival. I will search more too. I don't recall when they stopped using Ellis Island and it is possible they came through another port.

Goetzdude,

 

Thank you for your hint that Kienast 64 has been offered in the Moeller auction 41.

I have changed the picture of the medal. It is a scan again, but with somewhat better quality.

Now again you can get an impression on the quality of the work of Karl Goetz.

I will try to receive the original picture from Mr. Möller, if still available.

Thanks Research!! This is what it's all about...the history, the digging, the discovery. I had seen the other medal in Kienast II, and it was recently on the block at Moeller, but I have primarily focused my attention to the medals in my collection and hadn't really put two and two together that there were more than one birth medal.

Kienast left a lot to be desired in the descriptions of Goetz' medals and it is my full intention to eventually have in-depth descriptors for each of the medals on both my web site and in the future Goetz redux publication.

Not knowing the German language, nor having a clue as to where any answers could be located in Germany, I am forced to rely on such dedicated people as Research5. Your assistance is greatly appreciated! Bravo to you!!

That is something I am looking for like you, bill!

 

The text on the little sign below the sailing boat is Dutch and can be translated as "Always a good trip".

The S could be the first letter of her father or mother??

I'm assuming that the J&S are the parents first initials but with Goetz you just never know. I'll see if I can find out anything of the family. They were apparently wealthy and there might be something on the net that I can find.

K 65 JOHANNA VAN WIEN, 1910, Cast Silver, 55mm., 170.70g., Edge-punch; “KGoeTz, Silber”, Gussfrisch, RRR.

Goetz was commissioned by the Dutch Van Wien family to commemorate their daughter’s birth on April 3, 1910.

Obverse: Inscribed, J and S, Full-sailed schooner sailing past windmill and tulip field. Cartouche reads in Dutch “EENE VOORSPOEDIGE VAART” (A Prosperous Journey.”) KGoeTz below.

Reverse: Flower frond over name “JOHANNA VAN WIEN” and “GEBOREN-IN-MÜNCHEN AM 3.APRIL 1910 (Born in Munich on April 3, 1910). The inscription lozenge below is surrounded by zodiac wheel above, spring wildflowers to each side and two flowers at the base. The lozenge sits upon a scrolled cartouche with the inscription; “GESEGNET SEIST-DU-VOM-EWIGEN-O-UNSERE-TOCHTER ( Blessed be you by the Lord, oh’ our daughter).

It could be interesting to note that Goetz had used the wrong zodiac sign of the bull for this birth date. Aries, the Ram, would have been the correct zodiac birth sign for this date.

What do you do with the extra copies?

I'm currently holding on to them but will probably sell them in Germany. They are very rare over there and sell for $300+ per copy.

I also have both volumes of Kienast's working copies...a spendy set to say the least. I felt that since I have ownership of the copyrights for both books then I should own his working copies too. Both volumes will be "refurbished", combined, and integrated into my website where everyone can read them and view the medal descriptions with high-res images.

L Forrer, Biographical Dictionary of Medallists (9 vols., 1904-1930, reprinted 1987)

G Kienast, Goetz II: A Supplement to The Medals of Karl Goetz, Volume II

I have four other copies of the Kienast book but they are tough to get a hold of so I grab them when I can.

Both lots were won at the recent Charles Davis auction.