Goetzdude

Info on these and other Goetz patterns can be found here; http://www.karlgoetz.com/AlbumGallery.aspx?IdAlbum=25 The later albums (k-352 to 356) are still being populated so you might see some missing data.

Provenance: The KarlGoetz.com Collection

Goetz Pattern Proof as it appears left, and angled to capture toning, right.

I've got a set of beautiful purple/lavender toned copper Patterns (2.3.10, 20 Marks) in NGC slabs and this unslabbed 5 Mark which has the same coloring to complete the set. Lighter center on both sides is lack of toning from resting in cushioned box for 99 years. Slight mark at bottom appears to be a minting/planchet flaw. Your grade opinion is appreciated.

Karl Goetz 3 Mark Bavarian Pattern shot under three different angles of light. The piece is far more impressive in hand.

No, I am not aware of any birth medal for Stefan. It's always possible that Goetz made one or two and they somehow were not recorded along with his other works, or, if Goetz was involved, perhaps the family may have bought a stock birth medal for engraving. You've saved me from digging through my Heidemann and Dasio books but I can still look through Hörnlein's and Schwegerle's for information. I don't think it is likely I'll find anything but it'll be fun to go through the books anyway...it's been a while.

Yes, very good news indeed! Boy, we would have had a serious problem trying to find out information about her Aunt Johanna, eh? China, Australia, California, and Arizona? Just like a movie it seems. I will make sure that I include all the information when I create the HTML page for K-65 on my web site. This has got to be interesting to the casual reader of what history can unfold by collecting medals. Thank you again Research5......and good work! S

Research 5, Thank you so much for the added information!!! So it is likely that Johnna arrived in the U.S., very good news indeed. Unfortunately I do not have a membership with ancestory.com and it is unlikely I will since I would use it very little. I am hoping that Scottishmoney will pop in with his help very soon. You live up to your name, that's for sure... Also, How odd that your post was made seventy years to the day of the passenger list's date.

I noticed that the link to the medal image was toast so I have relinked the image in the first post and this one. Enjoy

Welcome back Research5 !! It appears you have done a fine job on the Van Wien birth medal article. Unfortunately I will need to wait for the English version before I can absorb more of the content. I am hoping that someone will contact you after seeing the article to tell you something more about the family and what happened to them. As I keep hounding over on another forum, this is exactly what collecting is all about...or should be, and I love how one fact leads you to a new path of research much like a scavanger hunt....the prize being the knowledge that we gain. Please post more often Research5, you have been missed.

Scottishmoney....have you had the chance to dig into the immigration sites/locations for additional information regarding Johanna van Wien? (it's raining here today which has allowed me a free day form my exterior house painting project )

Good luck in Munich Research5! I wish I was visiting there...I'd love to see Goetz' old house, Goetz' grave, the Bayerisches National Museum, and several dealer friends near by. I am hoping to make it back over again soon...it's been three years since my last visit to Germany! We'll await word from you Research%

I am ashamed to admit that I had never heard this story before. A quick synopsis can be found here. I have to question the 'children' traveling with their mother unless they were escorting her. Both in their late 20's, and Johanna married, it would seem to me that they would be worried about their own new families and relationships too. PS. Thanks Drusus...every medal has a story and that is why they are so fascinating. You'll learn something new every day if you collect them. We are so lucky to be living in the information age of the internet too.

Yes, I'm aware of the naming problems... Ancestry.com does have other immigration records... New York Passenger Lists, 1820-1957 - Updated! Baltimore Passenger Lists, 1820-1948 Boston Passenger Lists, 1820-1943 Canadian Border Crossings, 1895-1956 - New! California Passenger and Crew Lists, 1893-1957 - Updated! New Orleans Passenger Lists, 1820-1945 Philadelphia Passenger Lists, 1800-1945 Passenger & Immigration Lists Index, 1500s - 1900s - Updated! I'm just not a paying member

I have searched the Ellis Island database for every spelling variation of Van Wien offered and found nothing. I tried the mother and the children seperately too and still nothing. Even tried looking for Johanna Bauer with no luck. Although this isn't a difinitive outcome I am beginning to think they never made it out of Germany as Research5 has suggested. I will continue looking however,,,I hope we can find a happier ending.

I am descended from Volga Germans...they emmigrated to Russia in 1740 to farm wheat and then a few came here to the U.S. in 1918 to escape the Russian revolutions. I visited the two villages they founded just south of Saratov, Russia shortly after the wall came down. They were from the Fulda Germany vicinity originally and a few descendants from Russia returned to the area after the wall came down...I have yet to meet them though.

Scottishmoney...Thanks....and good, you have an ancestry.com account. I couldn't justify the membership fee because I already know about my heritage back to 1520 Germany. It appears that there were many other ports that the 'second wave' of immigration used with the breakout of WWII. Ancestry.com has links to those port archives too. Research5 has provided the mother's birthdate so this may help a lot. Good luck, and thanks again.

I think I have a picture if you can't come up with one research5. The one you posted seems nice enough though. I have begun to see if the Van Wien's came through Ellis Island when she and her two children arrived in the U.S.. The Ellis Island web site doesn't find them in their registery database but many mistakes in the recording of passenger names were made at the time of arrival. I will search more too. I don't recall when they stopped using Ellis Island and it is possible they came through another port.

Thanks Research!! This is what it's all about...the history, the digging, the discovery. I had seen the other medal in Kienast II, and it was recently on the block at Moeller, but I have primarily focused my attention to the medals in my collection and hadn't really put two and two together that there were more than one birth medal. Kienast left a lot to be desired in the descriptions of Goetz' medals and it is my full intention to eventually have in-depth descriptors for each of the medals on both my web site and in the future Goetz redux publication. Not knowing the German language, nor having a clue as to where any answers could be located in Germany, I am forced to rely on such dedicated people as Research5. Your assistance is greatly appreciated! Bravo to you!!

I'm assuming that the J&S are the parents first initials but with Goetz you just never know. I'll see if I can find out anything of the family. They were apparently wealthy and there might be something on the net that I can find.

K 65 JOHANNA VAN WIEN, 1910, Cast Silver, 55mm., 170.70g., Edge-punch; “KGoeTz, Silber”, Gussfrisch, RRR. Goetz was commissioned by the Dutch Van Wien family to commemorate their daughter’s birth on April 3, 1910. Obverse: Inscribed, J and S, Full-sailed schooner sailing past windmill and tulip field. Cartouche reads in Dutch “EENE VOORSPOEDIGE VAART” (A Prosperous Journey.”) KGoeTz below. Reverse: Flower frond over name “JOHANNA VAN WIEN” and “GEBOREN-IN-MÜNCHEN AM 3.APRIL 1910 (Born in Munich on April 3, 1910). The inscription lozenge below is surrounded by zodiac wheel above, spring wildflowers to each side and two flowers at the base. The lozenge sits upon a scrolled cartouche with the inscription; “GESEGNET SEIST-DU-VOM-EWIGEN-O-UNSERE-TOCHTER ( Blessed be you by the Lord, oh’ our daughter). It could be interesting to note that Goetz had used the wrong zodiac sign of the bull for this birth date. Aries, the Ram, would have been the correct zodiac birth sign for this date.

I'm currently holding on to them but will probably sell them in Germany. They are very rare over there and sell for $300+ per copy. I also have both volumes of Kienast's working copies...a spendy set to say the least. I felt that since I have ownership of the copyrights for both books then I should own his working copies too. Both volumes will be "refurbished", combined, and integrated into my website where everyone can read them and view the medal descriptions with high-res images.

L Forrer, Biographical Dictionary of Medallists (9 vols., 1904-1930, reprinted 1987) G Kienast, Goetz II: A Supplement to The Medals of Karl Goetz, Volume II I have four other copies of the Kienast book but they are tough to get a hold of so I grab them when I can. Both lots were won at the recent Charles Davis auction.