extant4cell

Look up there: http://www.m-dv.ru/monety-rossii-1700-1917/kid,21/mid,3/nid,15/types.html

I wish I could visit it any time soon... Happy to help with posting larger pictures, if you still need help with that. Thank you for the update IgorS!

Internet Based Catalog of Russian Fake Coins has a new home: http://numistika.com/counterfeit.html (site is still developing and new images are added). The old collection at http://www.rnumis.com/rnumis_research_0.php is still available.

that looks more like 1779 to me, not 1772... something like these ones:

use links in post 6 here is the coin we are talking about:

Must be a trial coin. By the look of it, it was the size of a current polushka (half the size). It looks like a preparation for a project of making coins even lighter. Some did later in 1713 from 4.27 to 4.10, but not almost half the weight as that denga looks like. There it is number 24.

Sigi, thank you for this additional information. I don't have Diakov's catalogs, but every time it's mentioned I am tempted more and more to buy some of them. And I come to understanding that great catalogs don't need advertising, their reputation is the best advertisement.

Hi Mike, your profile doesn't tell me if you are in Russia or somewhere else, and if you don't want to disclose your location, it's perfectly fine. All I am interested is if your dealer inside or outside Russia? I just don't believe these coins were known outside Russia until this year (Markov), that's all. Yours may be a second one known. GM didn't list them in his catalog, so none to be found in his collection (unless he just didn't list them all)...

Very nice coin! Congratulations! I counted some 4 other coins in here http://www.m-dv.ru/catalog/id,4268/prohod.html with yours being number 5. All discovered in Russia. Where did you find your coin?

Apparently they are well known, there is a mentioning of one like yours in one of the articles: http://www.numismat.ru/articles.shtml?id=440

By the way, as fanny as it may seem, even in Soviet times people called the side with the emblem "orel" (eagle)...

I've read it and some other discussions. A simple gamble game of "orlyanka" sounds more probable to me. What I am interested to know, though, if anything like that is known on coins outside Russian domain, and what those coins' purpose, if "yes". May be there is another explanation. The game "orlyanka" is long forgotten, but it's known that it was wide-spread among lower class and older kids. These coins found all around over the formally civilized area of Russian empire, wide-spread. These two facts are connected artificially so far as it seams, and thus the question of the origin of these markings is still somewhat in the air...

Another example that demonstrates a spread of this problem through the centuries:

I have this coin in my collection. Any thoughts on why it has markings on one side? It's not unique in that: The markings are usually on the side opposite to the nominal side, so the coin may still be sent back into circulation after it's temporary use as "???" what? Here is more examples: The main theory is that they were used for a game popular in Russia among commoners, explaining why these coins are found all across Russia. They even theorized it to the point of writing a couple of articles at different times, here is an example http://www.numlit.ru/pictures/magazine_33.pdf and http://www.staraya-moneta.ru/shop/55/1476/ ... but I am not entirely satisfied with this proposed answer - using coins for a gambling game called "orlyanka" (derived from Russian word "orel" meaning "eagle"). Similar markings, to a degree, can be found on other coins as well: Obviously, these coins couldn't have been used (most probably, but anything is possible, of cause) by Russians in 18-20 century for a gambling game. They probably had some other uses as well, as might be the case . Any ideas?

What would be the point of overstriking polushka (2.56 g) on old polushka (4.1 g)? I agree, it looks more like new kopeck (10.24 g) on denga (8.19 g). Denga was genuine, the kopeck is not. The only known kopecks' overstrikes are on 1 ore coins, like on this esteem coins: I see a few things wrong with this assumed 1 kopeck coin shown by Marsmike. One of the most obvious ones is the location of a spear, it always goes along the arm, not a torso... I for one, would be very excited if not for those signs of a counterfeiting...

I must agree with you Alex, as I completely forgot, to my shame, that Elizabeth MM mint coins actually had MM under the eagles. That Igor's coin is MM mint I noticed right away, as I am well aware of the eagle shapes now, but I got accustomed to look at the eagles, missing the rest of the coin sometimes. It seems that this coin die for averse was not completed with MMs under eagle, when it was prepared. But WHEN exactly it was prepared is unknown, it could have been prepared for the Elizabeth's coins, and kept in reserve on a shelf, as 180 . 5 kopeks dies later, and were taken off the shelf to be used on Ekaterina's coins, while they forgot to add MM to it. Mistake that was probably corrected very quickly on both occasions in 1763 at MM mint and in 1765 at EM.

Not many dies pair got mixed up with the old ones to start with? Or, may be at the very early stage a lot of Elizaveta time dies were used, but with EM introduced to the dies. Only handful didn't get EM punched on them before they went into production, and it was an error that soon enough was corrected?

Moscow mint eagles had this form in Elizabeth times too, didn't they? Could be a use of old dies from her coins... I see it as possible...

the last pic is a reconstruction only...

I can not show the whole article here, as it is yet to be printed, but I'll show you the pictures. This is not a new discovery, and it may as well be in 1997 Bakken/Brekke update (I don't have it), but the actual coin that has best looking leftover signs has been discovered by the author (I am a co-author with equal rights to the article) and a collector of these coins. Over the years he collected some very interesting examples of 1802 2 kopecks, and I helped him to organize his findings into the article, contributing my analysis and writing skills. We identified 3 types of 2 kopecks with EM under eagle, and presented them and their reconstruction. This is his overstrike coin: And this one (last) is a very rare die error, with dots on the top of nominal: Also, we believe the original reverse dies were kept for future strikes, after the EM were added under the year. Previous assumption was that they were destroyed. It also supports the idea that EM and the dot after the year were on original master-dies, that dies were made from, and that the coins with ghostly EM under the eagles are made with die, made from original master-dies that had EM and later dot, removed, etc. etc...

The collector of these coins in Russia has discovered an overstrike that confirms the former existance of ones with EM under the eagle. Not the first one, but the most interesting: the article will be printed in August issue of Peterburg Collector.

That can always be corrected with autocorrect options in image-viewer, and details come out better. But it comes down to how you like it personaly, I guess...

and try a darker background for darker coins and lighter for white...

The link in the first two posts doesn't work. Found a similar link, if anyone will be interested: Smithsonian Rare Russian Coin Collection Seeks Exhibition Sponsor "Extremely rare coins chronicle history of Russian empire" http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/english/article/2009/11/20091124175845fjreffahcs0.5918848.html#axzz3cSfUPBwJ and the most interesting addition to it (also, link in the article doesn't work, but I found it) - some coins from the collection: http://photos.america.gov/galleries/amgov/4110/russian_coins/

Hi IgorS, I checked the website ( http://russiannumismaticsociety.org ), and just wondering if there are any news on current status of RNS, and if there are any plans on publishing another issue. I am finishing an article on 1802 2 kopecks that I am working on with co-author from Russia, a collector who supplied a lot of images towards Kazbek Temiraev's 2012 catalog. If there is an opportunity to print it in the journal, I'd translate it in English.