Blois and Anjou

[Ætheling]

I know there's a few people on here that are interested in French coins. I'm stood here on the edge of an abyss (well medieval French coins from the feudal territories feel like an abyss!)

 

 

My main interest is in English and i fully intend it to remain as such, however, in the Norman period England and Normandy were under the same government (for the most part). So to ignore French relations completely is missing half of the picture.

 

The period that i intend to focus upon is 1100-1189 (from the accession of Henry I to the death of Henry Plantagenet). Now Henry II was a rather inspiring figure in his own right and one who deserves credit where it is due.

 

Now i'm fully aware of what England has to offer from the 1100-1160 period, various Henry I pennies of varying qualities. The Anarchy offers up plenty of interesting material, 1154-1189 delivers two main types of coinage for England Tealby (or Cross and Crosslet) pennies and the Short Cross Penny. So England i've got covered.

 

I would however, be interested in dipping into France and other European feudal territories that had a vested interest in Anglo-Norman politics of the time. Notably the House of Anjou from Geoffrey le Bel, Henry's father. Empress Matilda causes more of a problem of course.

 

But then there is Aquitane, the Royal French coinage of Louis VII who was negotiating terms with Prince Eustace trying to find a way to confront Henry of Anjou after he married the French King's discarded wife Ealanor without his permission. (Which made Henry more powerful in France than the French king), of course Blois and Champagne under Theobald IV cannot go unmentioned as he was the brother to the English king.

 

Are there any coins of Robert of Normandy (William I's son), or of Robert's son William?

 

In condensed form what coins are available from the following in the 1100-1189 period;

 

 

Anjou

Aquitane

Blois

Boulogne

Champagne

Chartres

French Royal

Holy Roman Empire (only for the HRE that was married to Empress Matilda though)

Poitou

Scotland

Vatican

 

 

There's more but it's been a while and my mind has gone a blank.

 

Basically i'm wanting the descendants of William the Conqueror that were active in this period;

 

 

1) Robert of Normandy and his son William Clito

2) William Rufus

3) Henry I of England and his daughter Matilda and her husbands either the Holy Roman Emperor Henreich V or Geoffrey le Bel.

4) Adela and Stephen of Blois and their children; Stephen of England, Theobald IV, Henry Bishop of Winchester (lack of coins on his part!)

5) David I of Scotland

6) Ascendants and Descendants of Geoffrey of Anjou; His father Fulk V, and his children Henry II of England, Geoffrey of Nantes (1134-58) and William of Poitou (1136-64)

7) Descendents of Henry II; Richard I & John both English and coins issued in their French territories.

8) Illegit chidren of Henry I of England... Robert of Gloucester etc.

 

Also are there any coins issued under non-secular people of this time, particularly anything related remotely to Bernard of Clairvaux. And finally anything from any of the Pope's of the period, particularly whoever was Pope in the 1135-7 period and in 1170 with the Beckett fiasco.

 

 

 

And wow... that's ALOT! Oh boy...

[Ætheling]

Oh and i forgot;

 

Matilda of Boulogne (wife of Stephen of England), is there any coinage of her father Eustace III of Boulogne?

 

Eleanor of Aquitane, any coins of William X her father, or of her sister's husband Raoul I of Vermandois?

 

 

If there is any coins of Bernard of Clairvaulx or coins issued by religious institutions under his command then perhaps also there are coins issued under the authority of Abbot Suger of St. Denis?

[mmarotta]

... in the Norman period England and Normandy were under the same government (for the most part). So to ignore French relations completely is missing half of the picture. ...

 

Collecting is always a personal pursuit, of course, so you have to make your own decisions. In this case, I think that you are wise to follow families and their properties rather than the largely irrelevant maps of the modern moment.

 

I have mentioned my own interest in the coins of medieval times and in looking through those rulers, I find that someone will be born one place, but will move his home to another property of his, founding a new line, basically. You have to accept that as the reality of the material artifacts. You cannot impose your time and place on the coins.

[Ætheling]

... in the Norman period England and Normandy were under the same government (for the most part). So to ignore French relations completely is missing half of the picture. ...

 

Collecting is always a personal pursuit, of course, so you have to make your own decisions. In this case, I think that you are wise to follow families and their properties rather than the largely irrelevant maps of the modern moment.

 

I have mentioned my own interest in the coins of medieval times and in looking through those rulers, I find that someone will be born one place, but will move his home to another property of his, founding a new line, basically. You have to accept that as the reality of the material artifacts. You cannot impose your time and place on the coins.

 

 

I am well aware of the problematic nature of imposing modern perspectives upon the past. More so with geographical locations as regions shifted, grew, shrunk, were annexed, divided etc.

 

Many of the individuals on my list did indeed migrate all over the place, Richard I of England being a case example. England hardly ever saw him, to put it into perspective a 10 years reign, a total of about 6 months was spent in England on two occasions, i think from memory it was something like 1189 and 1194. The rest of the time he was either in 'France' (what we'd call France these days at any rate), the rest of the time was split between; Cyprus, the Holy land and a spell in a 'German' prison amongst other places.

 

Yes the only way to make sense of any of this particular era in the medieval period is to follow the family trees... otherwise you're gonna get very, very lost. Especially when Dukes go by more than one number, they can be the II Duke of that name in one region, and the IV in their other territories.

[bill]

In condensed form what coins are available from the following in the 1100-1189 period;

Anjou

Aquitane

Blois

Boulogne

Champagne

Chartres

French Royal

Holy Roman Empire (only for the HRE that was married to Empress Matilda though)

Poitou

Scotland

Vatican

There's more but it's been a while and my mind has gone a blank.

 

 

 

 

A few notes from my interest area:

 

Chartres - an apparent haitus in coinage during this period.

 

Blois - an apparent haitus in coinage during this period.

 

for Theobald IV would be represented by anonymous deniers abd obols of Chateaudun, Poey d'Avant 1829, 1830, Caron 117, 118, 119, generally in the $100 to $300 range. Most are rare, but there are enough varieties so that a type piece should be collectible.

 

for Theobault V/Louis 1, again its Chateaudun, mostly deniers, some obols. Poey d'Avant 1831 -1840 , 1844, 1849 - 1852. Again anonymous, but there are some common types in here and should be easily collectible in the $50 to $100 range.

 

 

for the royal coinage, both Louis VI and VII should be easy to find depending on your preference.

 

Duplessy covers Louis VI with catalog numbers 87 - 133 and Louis VII with 134 - 159. While some are quite rare, others should be relatively easy to find for reasonable prices.