constanius Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Feuardent 925. Brass 25mm Tresoriers Militaires des Armees. Obv.LVDOVICVS MAGNVS.REX Bust r. signed C L Rev. DAT.FRVCTVS.DAT.QVE.CORONAS. Un grenadier charge de fruits, sous les rayons solaires. Exe. ORD.DES.GVERRES.PAPAREL.TRES. He/she/it gives produce/crops/fruit/profit/enjoyment/reward; and he/she/it gives crowns/garlands/awards. A pomegranate tree laden with fruit under the Suns rays. The Sun probably represents Louis XIV(the Sun King) who is supplying the good things in life. Paparel the Treasurer-General of the Ordinaires des Guerres had these jetons made in Germany for use in France, which just happened to be illegal at that time. Quote from Guy Rowland's 2002 "The Dynastic State and the Army Under Louis XIV: Royal Service...."; "The Ordinaires des Guerres was the oldest channel for military expenditure, reaching back to the mid-fifteenth century foundations of the standing army. By the 1660's it covered all expenditure that had been thought necessary in peacetime a hundred years earlier. The efforts of the crown to overhaul the fortresses and artillery, and the rapid growt in forces in the 1620's and 1630's, relegated the Ordinaires des Guerres to lowly secondary significance as it came to be dwarfed by its precocios sibling, the Extraordinaire. Moreover the Ordinaire was in a state of great confusion troughout the seventeenth century and the accounts were, in some cases, in atrocious states of neglect dating back to the 1590's. It handled around 2 million livres per annum by the end of the century, on which some commission was taken by its Treasurers-General. Until 1669 the two Treasurers-Generals had served together as a team but hence forth they would alternate each year in office. The most significant of these men were Claude Paparel & his son and successor Francois, who between them spanned Louis XIV's personal rule & who were closely related to La Touanne Treasurer-General of the Extraordinaire Des Guerres from 1686 to 1701" This contradicts Wikipedia; "Claude François Paparel , born in 1659 and died on 18 May 1725 in Paris . He is the son of Francois Paparel, Advisor to the King, Treasurer of the extraordinary wars" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 Excellent sleuthing / research work as always....and a nice quality jeton ! This design was issued over a number of years. I need to have a look at the various ones i have as my memory has it that some of these were minted at La Medaille. My memory could be (and probably is) wrong though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
constanius Posted April 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 The only 2 candidates I could find for C.L. are; C.L. Conrad Laufer, Counter-manufacturer at Nuremberg, 1637-1688.(My choice for now, unless you have a better candidate) & C.L. Caspar Longerich, Mint-master at Treves, 1683-1693. Would be nice if we could be sure on which of the Paparels ordered this one. Freuardent states these were banned in France, yet Paparel had his name engraved on them, which does seem strange. Looking forward to any info you can dig up Ian When Louis XIV died & Philippe became regent because the treasuries were depleted he, Paparel, along with many others, was charged with embezzlement & he was sentenced to death but this was commuted to life imprisonment & eventually he was allowed to spend the rest of his life on the island of Sainte-Marguerite in Provence with a pension of a 1000 francs. Feuardent: "All these chips without date, which we find for the Ordinary and Extraordinary War, 714 to 925 have been acquired by order of Paparel, the famous Treasurer of wars, probably in the service of considerable numbers of military personnel in charge of its accounting. There is little tokens of French manufacture in service, while the German chips abound and yet at that time, the entry of German tokens was banned in France. Their cheapness had probably committed the great servant to commit fraud with these chips, as the chips were considered benign"(please excuse the garbled translation) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 The only 2 candidates I could find for C.L. are; C.L. Conrad Laufer, Counter-manufacturer at Nuremberg, 1637-1688.(My choice for now, unless you have a better candidate) & C.L. Caspar Longerich, Mint-master at Treves, 1683-1693. Your one is definitely by Conrad Laufer of Nuremberg fame. As Feuardent notes (roughly)`there were some French made jetons in service'. I'll dig out the examples I have and check to see if any are French in origin. I'm sure I have a couple that are not typical Nuremberg types. I'll get back asap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 Great thread. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 I've had a quick look through my collection with the following results: I've got three different Nurenberg types and two different jeton types issued under Paparel but struck in France First the Nurenberg ones: unsigned signed LGL signed LGL, but more interestingly counterstamped with a Crown over `DG'. Ironically, this means that this otherwise `illegal' jeton has been subsequently legitimised via the counterstamp which indicates that it was sanctioned for use as legal tender in Guadeloupe. Now the French minted ones. signed `R', this one was minted for the `Tresoriers Militaires des Armees' and cites Paparel in the exergue, dated 1684. again, signed `R', this one was struck for the `Tresoriers de L'Extraordinaires des Guerres'. Although it does not cite Paparel, he was THE Treasurer of this particular administration at that time. The `Dat fructus....' jetons are without doubt all (without exception) German in origin. the french made ones are as per the above. The French ones were also struck in silver. The note provided by Feuardent indicate that there were only a few french made jetons issued during his time in office. There were a considerable number of employees under Paparel's charge and as a consequence large numbers of jetons were required. The enticement to commit fraud by buying German tokens on the cheap (but still charging the Treasury full whack) was too much temptation for Paparel, and his administration was flooded by these somewhat illegal imports. In terms of `value' the German made jetons are generally perceived to be `banal'......but on the other hand it makes the french made ones all the scarcer. There are seven documented Nurenberg `Dat fructus' types, and so far between us we have been able to come up with four of them. Not bad for amateurs ! ' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
constanius Posted May 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 Thanks for that Ian Have been on holiday in Florida for the last 14 days, without my computer, so only just seen your post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
constanius Posted June 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 Just a very nice example! OBV. LOVIS . LE . GRAND . ROY . DE . FRANCE REV. DAT . FRVCTVS . DAT . QVE . CORONAS EXE. ORD . DES . GVERRES . PAPAREL . TRES . Feuardent 916 Bust, no signature, gravee # 189 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
constanius Posted June 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 After reviewing the original post, This appears to be #523, not #525, and Feuardent seems to have made a mistake, re the signature, giving it as same(L.G.L.). gravee#191, var As you can see it is a head and is signed C L. For #525 he states head and gives gravee#190 which is a armoured bust and signed L. G. L. not C. L.! Perhaps the descriptions are right but the images 191 & 190 have been switched positions by mistake? For #525 he states head and gives gravee#190 var. which is a armoured bust and signed L. G. L. not C. L.! HELP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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