bobh Posted February 14, 2009 Report Share Posted February 14, 2009 With the exception of patterns, there appears to be only one obverse variety of 15 roubles 1897 with three letters under the neck ("OCC") listed in all of the references available to me. But for a long time, I have suspected that there must be at least two die varieties for these: one with an "Adam's apple" and one without. Please compare the following two coins offered in the upcoming Künker auction 150: 15 roubles 1897, no Adam's apple 15 roubles 1897, with Adam's apple If you open both links in new windows, you can compare them side-by-side. Is it just the different angles of lighting? It also looks like the point of the neck is sharper on the "no Adam's apple" variety. I have seen several examples of these (just online, though) over the last couple of years. Can't say for sure, but it looks like they appear about equally often. Anyway, I think it is an interesting variety and would like to think that I discovered it... But maybe someone has documented it already? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted February 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 With the exception of patterns, there appears to be only one obverse variety of 15 roubles 1897 with three letters under the neck ("OCC") listed in all of the references available to me. But for a long time, I have suspected that there must be at least two die varieties for these: one with an "Adam's apple" and one without. Please compare the following two coins offered in the upcoming Künker auction 150: 15 roubles 1897, no Adam's apple 15 roubles 1897, with Adam's apple If you open both links in new windows, you can compare them side-by-side. Is it just the different angles of lighting? It also looks like the point of the neck is sharper on the "no Adam's apple" variety. I have seen several examples of these (just online, though) over the last couple of years. Can't say for sure, but it looks like they appear about equally often. Anyway, I think it is an interesting variety and would like to think that I discovered it... But maybe someone has documented it already? bump... Anybody? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 bump... Anybody? the latest reference is Kazakov, did you check it in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted February 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 the latest reference is Kazakov, did you check it in... Thank you ... yes, I have the Kazakov book. No mention of Adam's apples! But he does list more varieties of this series than anyone else... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Thank you ... yes, I have the Kazakov book. No mention of Adam's apples! But he does list more varieties of this series than anyone else... do you read russian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted February 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 do you read russian? М-да, немножко понимаю по-русски - но каталог Казакова также написан по-английсски. A почему точно, пожалуйста, вопрос? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 М-да, немножко понимаю по-русски - но каталог Казакова также написан по-английсски. A почему точно, пожалуйста, вопрос? read your personel message... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted February 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Just to clarify, we are talking about two different varieties within the "OCC" variety (not counting pattern coins, just regular strikes). The "CC" variety also shows an Adam's apple, but this is the "OCC" variety. Until today, I have not seen it documented anywhere (I have catalogues by Kazakov, Bitkin, Uzdenikov, Severin and Adrianov at my disposal). I'm fairly certain now that it is not just different lighting because of the point of the bust which is clearly larger on the coin with the Adam's apple. What fascinates me is that we have at least 5 documented varieties (6 with the Adam's apple) for a coin type which was issued only in one year. I wonder if all started out as patterns, and they just used the dies in a certain order until they wore out, one after the other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted February 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 In addition, the line of the base of the neck is straighter in the variety with no Adam's apple. I'm surprised that there is so little interest in these varieties ... perhaps because neither one is particularly rare? Or does everyone think that Mr. Kazakov has "closed the book" with his catalog, that it is not possible to discover new varieties? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 In addition, the line of the base of the neck is straighter in the variety with no Adam's apple. I'm surprised that there is so little interest in these varieties ... perhaps because neither one is particularly rare? Or does everyone think that Mr. Kazakov has "closed the book" with his catalog, that it is not possible to discover new varieties? ask Kazakov, what does he think about Adam's apple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted February 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 ask Kazakov, what does he think about Adam's apple I would like to ... do you know how to contact him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 I would like to ... do you know how to contact him? sorry never spoke with him, by the way it is your part to find him and ask since there is no big interest over here either readers keep silence on purpose but cheking their stock for your variant... if i were you i would use a tip i sent to your personnel message and see if they can help you with this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 sorry never spoke with him, by the way it is your part to find him and ask since there is no big interest over here either readers keep silence on purpose but cheking their stock for your variant... Maybe such variants have gone unnoticed until now. The lack of response might be more due to unfamiliarity rather than a lack of interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Maybe such variants have gone unnoticed until now. The lack of response might be more due to unfamiliarity rather than a lack of interest. you can be right, at the same moment, Kazakov had handled so many pieces during his catalog preparation period so very little is a chance that he missed that variety... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted May 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 In the meantime, I had the opportunity to buy one of the "Adam's apple" varieties I mentioned earlier in this thread (Hess-Divo 313, "De La Tour" collection, lot 477). I also made some pictures comparing the two varieties. You can read about it (in Russian) here: http://coins.su/forum/index.php?s=&sho...st&p=351082 Even if you can't read Russian, you can see the two varieties side-by-side, the one with the Adam's apple first. I'll try to get the larger pictures on my website and post links to them here (it is not allowed to post links to 3rd-party hosts on the coins.su forum). But I think it is very clear now that these are two different varieties (even if the difference is fairly small). As to relative rarity, I think they appear almost equally often. But it is interesting that we now have SEVEN obverse die varieties, including three patterns, for a coin issued in one year only! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 In the meantime, I had the opportunity to buy one of the "Adam's apple" varieties I mentioned earlier in this thread (Hess-Divo 313, "De La Tour" collection, lot 477). I also made some pictures comparing the two varieties. You can read about it (in Russian) here: http://coins.su/forum/index.php?s=&sho...st&p=351082 Even if you can't read Russian, you can see the two varieties side-by-side, the one with the Adam's apple first. I'll try to get the larger pictures on my website and post links to them here (it is not allowed to post links to 3rd-party hosts on the coins.su forum). But I think it is very clear now that these are two different varieties (even if the difference is fairly small). As to relative rarity, I think they appear almost equally often. But it is interesting that we now have SEVEN obverse die varieties, including three patterns, for a coin issued in one year only! too bad that Russians did not recognize seriously this kind of variant with Adams apple; "Jaroslaff" was Andrianov as you realized; I am glad at least that you got a second opinion from them on your discovery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted May 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 too bad that Russians did not recognize seriously this kind of variant with Adams apple; "Jaroslaff" was Andrianov as you realized; I am glad at least that you got a second opinion from them on your discovery Thank you, one-kuna. Yes, I own the excellent catalog by Mr. Adrianov (he also signed each book himself after the introduction!) I realize that there must be certain guidelines about what is a variety and what is not ... compared to the other documented varieties of this coin, which are almost totally different coins entirely, there is not such a difference. It is more like the VAM varieties of USA Morgan and Peace dollars. Most of these can be attributed to some kind of die state or deterioration, die polish, etc. It's possible that die polish was the cause of these differences ... I am guessing that it enlarged the point of the bust, changed the curve of the neck somewhat, and possibly created the "Adam's apple". By the criteria of the VAM book, it is a variety. Otherwise ... maybe not. (Now, how do you say all of that in Russian ... anyone who can help, please feel free to send me a PM ...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted May 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 It is more like the VAM varieties of USA Morgan and Peace dollars. Most of these can be attributed to some kind of die state or deterioration, die polish, etc.It's possible that die polish was the cause of these differences ... I am guessing that it enlarged the point of the bust, changed the curve of the neck somewhat, and possibly created the "Adam's apple". The more I think about this, the more reasons I find to think it was precisely die polishing which created this one. As I see it now, the "Adam's apple" variety would be an earlier die state (reason: look at the distance between the base of the neck and the legend). At any rate, I intend to write this up for the fall edition of the JRNS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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