Goetzdude Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 Here is an image of a wax seal that was found in the Goetz cabinet stash. It appears to be Pegasus and I would have thought Persius but the text doesn't imply that. Do we have any Greeks out there that can make heads or tails from the inscription?? I was thinking it might be Russian too but that doesn't make sense. Sorry, the word can't be seen better, even under a 10X stereoscope. Any help would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 I'm trying to see Bellerophon --who is usually associated with Pegasus-- in the inscription, but it really doesn't fit. Hmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
constanius Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 It is Bellerophon with the golden bridle and Pegasus drinking from the spring, the very momment of their first meeting. As to the inscription------? Link to wedgewood plaque of the same scene Bellerophon watering Pegasus - attr. William Hackman, ca. 1773 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goetzdude Posted October 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 Does " ςωψρλτον " make any sense? That's what the letters look like to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 Does " ςωψρλτον " make any sense? That's what the letters look like to me. Could it be the Greek word for Bellerophon? One French medalist named some of his medals with the Greek name of the character represented in Greek. I do not think this is an example of that medalist's work, but it was a technique that was used. I assume you are looking for a clue to the artist or something that might allow you to track down the location of the medal (assuming it is a museum). Perhaps an inquiry to Phillip Atwood at the Bristish Museum might help? I can try to track down his email address if that would help. I at least can find his mail address as he edits the British magazine, The Medal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 βελλεροφων = Bellerophon. Goetzdude, I agree that your transcription looks like what's on the seal, but even with my limited knowledge of Greek I don't think it spells a Greek word. Hmmmm... Might we ask the guys in ancients who know more Greek? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goetzdude Posted October 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 On another forum someone experienced with ancients came up with; CWKPATOY - which, if we assume it's later Greek usage, in Latin/English lettering would be SOCRATOU, "of Socrates". I don't know squat about this but it doesn't make sense to me that Socrates would be mentioned with an image of of Bellerophon and Pegasus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 A google search points to several books (on google books) about ancient coins. The word appears to be the name (CWKPATOY TOY EENCWANOY) of a magistrate (who issued the coins?). I know that doesn't help much, but it does point somewhat to a name rather than Socrates and a historical figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank Posted October 6, 2008 Report Share Posted October 6, 2008 Check out this link/web site of wax seals: link It's another copy of the same seal, with a clearer inscription. But I couldn't tell you what the Greek says!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
constanius Posted October 6, 2008 Report Share Posted October 6, 2008 The Wedgewood plaque I posted was apparently made from a gem in the possession of the Duke of Marlborough. As was a cast in Terra Cota by Mr Wedgewood of the Marriage of Cupid and Psyche, from the gem in possession of the Duke of Marlborough. The Marlborough Collection The collection of the Fourth Duke of Marlborough (1739-1817) at Blenheim Palace was the largest and most important of the 18th-century English collections. It comprised about 800 pieces. Of these one third was a Renaissance collection of the Gonzaga Dukes of Mantua (15th/16th-century), acquired by Lord Arundel in the mid-17th century; one third the mid-18th-century collection of Lord Bessborough (including collections of Lord Chesterfield and others); and one third from the Duke's own collecting in Italy and elsewhere. The Gonzaga gems were famed in Renaissance Italy but never published (as were the Medici); the Bessborough gems were a good mix of ancient, Renaissance and later, published in summary lists without illustration; while the Duke's own interests took him over the whole field, from ancient to neo-classical, and he was a notable patron of the most important neo-classical engravers, whose works he acquired "We have made considerable progress in the reconstruction of the collection and identified impressions of a vast proportion of the collection among the wax impressions and electrotypes in the Beazley Archive. I think your seal originated from the Beazley archive, that is it is a wax copy of one of Marlboroughs gems. The information for the link Frank posted follows: 329, Bellerophon Watering Pegasos at Hippokrene; a Tree Behind. Ground Line. Inscribed ? Otiatou, Or the Like, Apparently a False Copy of Sostratou which Appears on Other Versions. The name has just been clipped at the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
constanius Posted October 6, 2008 Report Share Posted October 6, 2008 Googled again. I took the liberty of reversing the image. 40000566, Poniatowski, T537, Atalanta Killing the Centaurs Rhoecus and Hylaeus [They are Seen Falling Backwards Transfixed with Arrows], Sotratou, Sostratos, Prendeville, J.: Explanatory Catalogue of the Proof-impressions of the Antique Gems Possessed by the Late Prince Poniatowski and Now in the Possession of John Tyrrell, Esq. (1841), 537, Cornelian Same inscription as yours! Sotratou, Sostratos was a magistrate Illyria-Apollonia, AR Drachm, Filotas (Moneyer), Sostratou (Magistrate) wether the same person, who knows, but the same name. So it is definitely a name!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goetzdude Posted October 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2008 You guys are all great!!! Thanks!! S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goetzdude Posted October 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2008 You guys are all great!!! Thanks!! S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goetzdude Posted October 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2008 Thanks everyone...you guys are great!! Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
constanius Posted October 6, 2008 Report Share Posted October 6, 2008 Thought I should post a link. THE MARLBOROUGH COLLECTION I noticed that: 190 Sardonyx Sacrifice to Dionysos and 231.Tassie Onyx Priapus worship show the same object, just different copies, but are labeled differently. So sent them an email. Thanks for posting the topic, great fun doing the research. P.S. Just received this email (FSA stands for Fellow of the Society of Antiquaries): Well spotted! I did originally identify the Tassie impression with the wrong description and when we then found the impression with the right number in Blenheim Palace the unfortunate duplication came about (I had already corrected it in the manuscript for the book, though...). So the right number is 190. Thank you so much for bringing it to my attention. Best wishes, Claudia P.S.: I love your coin collection, too... -- Dr Claudia Wagner FSA Beazley Archive; Classics Centre 66 St Giles, Oxford OX1 3LU; Great Britain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goetzdude Posted October 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2008 Thought I should post a link. THE MARLBOROUGH COLLECTION I noticed that: 190 Sardonyx Sacrifice to Dionysos and 231.Tassie Onyx Priapus worship show the same object, just different copies, but are labeled differently. So sent them an email. Thanks for posting the topic, great fun doing the research. Yeah, same subject matter but carved into different stone. Google has actually scanned the 1870 MARLBOROUGH COLLECTION book and you can download it. No images but you can read about the history of the collection and it has descriptions of each gem. I'm going to write to them and try to find out why Goetz might have had one...I'm assuming that it is a display impression piece I now own as it has been "framed" like those pieces in the archives. Perhaps they can shed more light on the matter. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goetzdude Posted October 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2008 Here is the response back from the professionals at the museum: _____________________________________________________ Dear *****, Your impression is not of the Marlborough gem but of a very similar one. They all copy a relief in the Palazzo Spada (Bober/Rubinstein, no. 139a): Bellerophon with dress over one shoulder and shouldering a spear, watering Pegasos at the spring Hippokrene; a tree behind. Ground line. All of them have slighly dodgy Greek inscriptions, yours is much better than the Marlborough, the proper SOSTRATOU (ours manages a strange OTIATOV, or the like). Your version actually appears in Tassie: [L=Tassie Collection]http://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/gems/tassie/default.htm[/L] enter the gem number 9052 in the box on the right. You can toggle between text and picture. Even Tassie didn't disclose the private collector of the original. It is more than likely that your impressions are actually manufactured by Tassie. If there is the number 9052 on the paper wrapper that would clinch it. The material it is made from is not actually red wax (as our Marlborough impressions) but 'red sulphur'. It gives a very crisp product with a hard and durable surface which is strangely brittle and can be a bit bubbly inside. That break at the bottom definitely shouts red sulphur... There were other manufacturers of gem impressions (among them Lippert in Germany, Dolce and Dehn in Rome) but Tassie had the greatest number on offer scholars could choose from. They would browse the catalogue and pick and mix. The full set of 15800 impressions was only ordered twice: by Catherine the Great and the V&A. See if the Tassie numbers correspond with your impressions! Best wishes, Claudia ____________________________________________________________ Unfortunately my impression has the #27 written on it...I wrote and asked if she could provide more info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.