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Fake 1730 ducat


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#1 RW Julian

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Posted 12 October 2007 - 10:56 PM

The following coin, presently being offered on eBay, was published as a fake
in the Russian Numismatic Society Newsletter 13 (spring 2004). The piece
appears to have been slabbed by ANACS and then given a value by a major
auction house. The same seller also recently sold a denga of Peter III, equally suspect.

The coin on eBay is the same specimen illustrated in the RNS Newsletter. It
was earlier offered through eBay by a French seller in January 2004.

http://cgi.ebay.com/...em=270174582278

RWJ

#2 Hussulo

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Posted 13 October 2007 - 12:46 AM

Also in his statement he says it is "Appraised at 40K!!! " but if you read the appraisal the correct value is $10,000.
The $40,000 was for the 1749 Ducat.

#3 Ruble

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Posted 13 October 2007 - 06:32 AM

Even seller's rating would scare a normal person. :ninja:

#4 grivna1726

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Posted 13 October 2007 - 09:59 AM

The same seller also recently sold a denga of Peter III, equally suspect.


I don't like this 1719 poltina either, which apparently sold to the same person who purchased the Peter III denga.

Not surprisingly, the terms of sale for the 1719 poltina state "No refund!".

The poltina which (according to the seller) "looks AU" sold for a mere $264.00.

A genuine example of the 1719 poltina in such high grade would easily bring a minimum of 10 times that amount in a real auction, and probably significantly more.

#5 grivna1726

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Posted 13 October 2007 - 10:05 AM

Also in his statement he says it is "Appraised at 40K!!! " but if you read the appraisal the correct value is $10,000.
The $40,000 was for the 1749 Ducat.


It seems to me that the "appraisal" is based on the questionable assumption that the coins are genuine. If the coins are not genuine, then they are worth scrap value only, unless someone out there is foolish enough to knowingly pay a premium for fakes.

#6 Timofei

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Posted 13 October 2007 - 10:10 AM

Nashigluki is an interesting nick-name, cannot translate that exactly, but reminds drug culture

#7 Hussulo

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Posted 13 October 2007 - 11:05 AM

It seems to me that the "appraisal" is based on the questionable assumption that the coins are genuine. If the coins are not genuine, then they are worth scrap value only, unless someone out there is foolish enough to knowingly pay a premium for fakes.


Agreed Grivna but my point was that the seller didnít even quote the right value. Even assuming that the coins were genuine which listening to this thread sound dubious, the seller is still misleading on the apparent appraisal value.
I would like to say more and would be more direct and critical but I am trying to be a little diplomatic since gxseiesís worry about possible law suits etc.

#8 GENUSIK

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 03:15 PM

The following coin, presently being offered on eBay, was published as a fake
in the Russian Numismatic Society Newsletter 13 (spring 2004). The piece
appears to have been slabbed by ANACS and then given a value by a major
auction house. The same seller also recently sold a denga of Peter III, equally suspect.

The coin on eBay is the same specimen illustrated in the RNS Newsletter. It
was earlier offered through eBay by a French seller in January 2004.

http://cgi.ebay.com/...em=270174582278

RWJ



#9 GENUSIK

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 03:18 PM

The slab says "ex-jewelry". How would a contemporary fake make it into a jewelry?! I would expect ANACS to at least get this right. Any ideas? Thanks! Gene

#10 RW Julian

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 03:47 PM

The slab says "ex-jewelry". How would a contemporary fake make it into a jewelry?! I would expect ANACS to at least get this right. Any ideas? Thanks! Gene

For two reasons:

1. It is a modern fake, not contemporary.

2. Modern counterfeiters are inventive.

This piece later sold for just over $3,000, which says all that is necessary about its authenticity. A
genuine piece would have sold for at least 10 times that much.

http://cgi.ebay.com/...em=270182280911

RWJ

#11 GENUSIK

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 07:44 PM

For two reasons:

1. It is a modern fake, not contemporary.

2. Modern counterfeiters are inventive.

This piece later sold for just over $3,000, which says all that is necessary about its authenticity. A
genuine piece would have sold for at least 10 times that much.

http://cgi.ebay.com/...em=270182280911

RWJ



#12 GENUSIK

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 07:47 PM

RWJ, thanks for a quick reply! I was bidding for the coin with a $2,5K bid. The buyer who offered $3K backed out of the deal and it is offered to me for $2.5K. I guess I'll have to pass too..... Gene

#13 jroc

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 09:04 PM

If thsi piece was real, what the current price range be in that grade. What is a good reference point for Russian piece since the market seems to have gone through the roof!!

#14 grivna1726

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 10:03 PM

RWJ, thanks for a quick reply! I was bidding for the coin with a $2,5K bid. The buyer who offered $3K backed out of the deal and it is offered to me for $2.5K. I guess I'll have to pass too..... Gene


Good idea.

The 1730 ducat of Anna is an extremely rare coin which is almost never offered for sale.

The chance of such a coin being offered exclusively on ebay rather than in a major international auction is virtually nonexistent.

If the coin were genuine, it is hard to say what it would bring in today's market, but RWJ's suggestion of $30,000 and up is probably quite conservative.

The chance that you would be able to purchase a genuine example of the 1730 ducat for a mere $2,500 is about as likely as someone selling you genuine US Double Eagles for $20 each.

Gorny sold an example of the 1730 ducat last year (October, 2006) for Ä 65,000 hammer price (a bit over $80,000 at the time).

#15 RW Julian

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 11:14 PM

Good idea.

The 1730 ducat of Anna is an extremely rare coin which is almost never offered for sale.

The chance of such a coin being offered exclusively on ebay rather than in a major international auction is virtually nonexistent.

If the coin were genuine, it is hard to say what it would bring in today's market, but RWJ's suggestion of $30,000 and up is probably quite conservative.

The chance that you would be able to purchase a genuine example of the 1730 ducat for a mere $2,500 is about as likely as someone selling you genuine US Double Eagles for $20 each.

Gorny sold an example of the 1730 ducat last year (October, 2006) for Ä 65,000 hammer price (a bit over $80,000 at the time).

Thanks for the correction on the price; I had forgotten the Gorny piece. The seller of the 1730
ducat advertises that he will be selling a 1749 ducat towards the end of December. RNS Journal
No. 84
published a fake 1749 ducat and one has to wonder if it is not the same coin that was
illustrated. (The 1730 piece under discussion was the exact same coin published in the Journal
as a fake.)

RWJ

#16 grivna1726

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 11:50 PM

Thanks for the correction on the price; I had forgotten the Gorny piece.


Actually, RWJ, so had I. The only ones that came readily to mind were the 2 (!!!) 1730 ducats sold by Swiss Bank Corp in 1977. I thought there might be a more recent offering, did a search and sure enough, there was. There might be others but I didn't bother looking any further because a 2006 sale is reasonably recent and served to illustrate that a genuine example would bring much more than the $2500 asked by the dubious ebay seller.


The seller of the 1730
ducat advertises that he will be selling a 1749 ducat towards the end of December. RNS Journal
No. 84
published a fake 1749 ducat and one has to wonder if it is not the same coin that was
illustrated. (The 1730 piece under discussion was the exact same coin published in the Journal
as a fake.)

RWJ



I think this is a very real possibility.




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