Platinum coinage discussion

[gxseries]

Thought it would be nice to open a new topic just for this

 

I have read the PDF files.  I don't doubt the scientific validity of the metal analysis performed and agree that coins of high purity could not have been made at the time that the platinum pieces were originally made for circulation.

 

However, I have difficulty with the assumption that because the high purity coins were struck at a later date, that they are therefore forgeries.

 

The authors seem to take the position that "novodel" and "forgery" are synonyms, a view which I reject as extreme and reflective of an apparent misunderstanding of what novodels are.  It is important to remember that genuine novodels were made by the Russian mint with official approval and sometimes using original dies.  They are officially produced restrikes.

 

There are sellers on ebay who try to pass off modern fakes as "novodels", but these are frauds that serve only to confuse people.

 

The US 1804 dollar is an American novodel, officially struck after 1804 using newly made dies (there were no US silver dollars struck in 1804).  Yet very few collectors of US coins would say the 1804 dollar is a "forgery" because it was actually made sometime in the 1830s.

 

What the the authors have done is to demonstrate that original Russian platinum coins can be distinguished from later novodels by studying the metallic composition.  This is useful information, but the assumption that novodels and forgeries are the same thing is just bad numismatics.

 

All of them are valid point Grivna. I have to agree. Indeed, the writer was extremely carefuly to use the word "novodel" in the story, and it doesn't suprise me why. My question is this: when the platinum rubles were recalled back in 1845, Russia has already been minting such coins for 18 years. At that particular time, such coins are supposely "common", unless it was proven to be so unpopular that the mint successfully managed to retrive most of them AND melt them down. And to consider the mintage number of such coins minted, novodels of 3 rubles is not something I would expect. (6 and 12 rubles are another story though)

 

Pure platinum refinery technology was only developed later in 1870, so I can assuming that if a 100% pure platinum restrike was to be made, it could have been made at that time. Within a span of 25 years since the last platinum ruble was struck and for someone to ask for novodel is not something I can imagine, unlike the 1835 family ruble.

 

What mystifies me is on the topic if Saint Petersburg mint actually felt the need to refine till such fineness, suppsely if the restrikes did occur. Technology wise, I wouldn't be suprised if the mint imported it from England or developed their own. I I suppose it can be possible after 20 odd years, when the technology started to revolutionize on the refinery of platinum... the mint took whatever request that came in... I was thinking that it could have occured during the odd restrike era of the early Soviet era, which is when the Gangut ruble was restruck, but that makes me wonder if dies can last longer than 70+ years.

 

There is something that I must insist though, that is the platinum coinage design is not something terribly difficult to counterfeit because of it's simplistic design. If one is willing to make less profit, there isn't a reason why such coins are difficult to counterfeit, even in genuine platinum.

[grivna1726]

Thought it would be nice to open a new topic just for this

All of them are valid point Grivna. I have to agree. Indeed, the writer was extremely carefuly to use the word "novodel" in the story, and it doesn't suprise me why. My question is this: when the platinum rubles were recalled back in 1845, Russia has already been minting such coins for 18 years. At that particular time, such coins are supposely "common", unless it was proven to be so unpopular that the mint successfully managed to retrive most of them AND melt them down. And to consider the mintage number of such coins minted, novodels of 3 rubles is not something I would expect. (6 and 12 rubles are another story though)

 

I have no information concerning the number melted or otherwise destroyed when the original platinum coins were recalled. It might have been substantial. From what I have read, the platinum coins were very unpopular because of platinum's low value at the time. In other countries, platinum was even used to make counterfeit gold coins which would then be given a gold plating and passed into circulation.

 

Rarity was not the only reason for making novodels. If collectors desired a certain coin, but could not find one in nice condition, there was always the novodel option available. The novodels were often of better quality than the original strikes. The fact that platinum novodels were made is not new information. Old Krause catalogs from 20+ years ago carried the following comment under the platinum 3 rubles listing: "NOTE: The low mintage figures incorporated in the following listings of Russian platinum issues are not necessarily reflective of relative scarcity as many of the issues were restruck at later dates, using original dies in unrecorded quantities."

 

Pure platinum refinery technology was only developed later in 1870, so I can assuming that if a 100% pure platinum restrike was to be made, it could have been made at that time. Within a span of 25 years since the last platinum ruble was struck and for someone to ask for novodel is not something I can imagine, unlike the 1835 family ruble.

 

The metallic analysis would then establish that the pure platinum coins were made sometime after 1870. Maybe attitudes toward the platinum coins had changed by then and collectors had begun seeking them out. Today, platinum is more expensive than gold, which is different than the time of Nicholas I. When did that change in value happen? Was it in Imperial times, or later?

 

What mystifies me is on the topic if Saint Petersburg mint actually felt the need to refine till such fineness, suppsely if the restrikes did occur. Technology wise, I wouldn't be suprised if the mint imported it from England or developed their own. I I suppose it can be possible after 20 odd years, when the technology started to revolutionize on the refinery of platinum... the mint took whatever request that came in... I was thinking that it could have occured during the odd restrike era of the early Soviet era, which is when the Gangut ruble was restruck, but that makes me wonder if dies can last longer than 70+ years. 

 

I suppose that the dies could last for a very long time, especially if carefully protected and stored. I have no information about when the coins were restruck. My guess is that it was in Imperial times, but it could just as easily have been done by the Soviet government (assuming that the dies had survived until then).

 

There is something that I must insist though, that is the platinum coinage design is not something terribly difficult to counterfeit because of it's simplistic design. If one is willing to make less profit, there isn't a reason why such coins are difficult to counterfeit, even in genuine platinum.

 

Maybe, although I'm not sure that I would describe the fine details of the eagle and shields as easy to duplicate (as seen on this platinum 3 rubles coin, which is about the size of a quarter in real life).