gxseries Posted June 3, 2006 Report Share Posted June 3, 2006 Link baroque Kopek or better know as the eagle on cloud designs are very short-lived - just 1755 - 1757, and often in the form on overstruck 1724-1730 5kopeks and prone to 3 future overstriking programs. How this coin survived all odds just astonishes me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 3, 2006 Report Share Posted June 3, 2006 Link baroque Kopek or better know as the eagle on cloud designs are very short-lived - just 1755 - 1757, and often in the form on overstruck 1724-1730 5kopeks and prone to 3 future overstriking programs. How this coin survived all odds just astonishes me. The coin is Brekke-43 (according to NGC and the seller). Brekke-43 is a novodel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted June 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2006 Grivna, thanks for letting me know - I forgot that possiblity Do you have any idea when such novodels were struck? In the early 1800s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 3, 2006 Report Share Posted June 3, 2006 I don't know when they were made. Maybe the mid-1800's, but that's just a guess. The eagle in clouds is a beautiful design and the novodels of it are exceptionally attractive. That one being offered looks very nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiffibunny Posted June 3, 2006 Report Share Posted June 3, 2006 Most certainly a beautiful design! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 3, 2006 Report Share Posted June 3, 2006 The coin has this description: "Russia 1755 Copper 1 Kopeck. Very rare coin in this lofty grade, graded as Super GEM Uncirculated MS-66 by NGC. Very pleasing and problem free, glossy fields and so beautiful design. St. Petersburg mint. The largest size kopeck ever made. Die break at 6 o'clock on obverse, all natural as made. Brekke-43". (emphasis added). Brekke-43 is novodel with a Moscow Mint legend on the edge. The edge won't be visible in the slab. Without a mintmark and without a visible edge, it is hard to say which mint it is. Brekke does not list any 1755 Baroque kopek novodels with the St. Petersburg edge (only Brekke-40, which are originals). This coin looks so refined and so nearly perfect that it is almost certainly a novodel (probably Brekke-43 as stated on the slab) and the seller's attribution to St. Petersburg rather than Moscow is probably mistaken. In any event, it is a beautiful coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted June 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2006 Grivna, I am struggling to understand how possibly Moscow mint could produce such quality. I mean, in most of the Moscow minted coins, most of them happen to be of "inferior" strikes compared to St. Petersburg mint. As well as, supposely if this was struck later in the 1800s, what mint will it be? If I am not mistaken, Moscow mint ended it's life before the start of Pavel I. Technology wise, it was not as advanced as St. Petersburg mint and ever since, Moscow mint never struck coins until the Soviet era. Does this mean that the novodels (or actually planchets) were struck in St. Petersburg mint or a mint in Moscow that I am not aware of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 3, 2006 Report Share Posted June 3, 2006 I'm not sure, but I think the "Moscow" novodels were probably made at St. Petersburg. Remember, you could get anything you wanted at the mint if you had the money to pay for it. Here is a similar novodel which appears to be overstruck on another (novodel?) Baroque kopek (maybe just to make it more "interesting"?). Like I said, you could get anything made to order. LINK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted June 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2006 ;) That particular coin seems to be double struck for some bizarre reasons. Nice finding there. Good point Grivna - it might as well be minted in St. Petersburg and indeed it is true if you had the money to spare for it, you can get any novodels. Apperantly, the Russians have zero ethics when it comes down to novodels - you will never know when they were restruck. Now I wonder if St. Petersburg mint still takes such orders... Would be very neat if St. Petersburg makes novodel set release of the past Imperial coinage, although St. Petersburg mint occasionally uses such images on commemorative coins / medals from time to time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 3, 2006 Report Share Posted June 3, 2006 Apperantly, the Russians have zero ethics when it comes down to novodels - you will never know when they were restruck. The Grand Duke persuaded the Tsar stop the novodel abuses (but supposedly waited until his own novodel collection was complete before he did). The Gangut ruble apparently had some novodels made after 1917, under the Communist government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted June 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2006 Sold for 900USD... which I think is a good price. I'm still baffled over the question though. IF the novodels have indications that it is made in Moscow mint, would that mean that the Moscow mint dies / planchets were sent back to St. Petersburg mint? And for what purposes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 14, 2006 Report Share Posted June 14, 2006 IF the novodels have indications that it is made in Moscow mint, would that mean that the Moscow mint dies / planchets were sent back to St. Petersburg mint? And for what purposes? Maybe the novodels were made from new dies? 18th century silver coins were edged first, then struck (without a collar) in a screw press. I don't know for sure, but I believe the copper coins were made in the same way. I don't know what happened to the dies and edging materials used at Moscow when that mint was closed. Obviously, the mint would not want them to get out in usable condition because of the potential for high quality counterfeits. The simplest solution would be to deface the dies before discarding them, but the dies might have been shipped to St. Petersburg if that was desired by the authorities. Maybe the Moscow edge was just applied using an edge specially made for the novodels, which seems the easiest way to do it. This is all just speculation on my part and I might be completely wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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